A compromise and further discussion of the Recall in dungeons thread, please read

[Baltar]

I have a new perspective on the situation and here is a compromise I'm suggesting, based upon the debate and conversation that took place in the last thread I posted on the subject of recalls/gating into and out of dungeons. It was a VERY good discussion with all sides making very legitimate points, and I believe all participants can agree on that.

Here is the original thread, if you want to take a few minutes to read it through, EVERYONE made fantastic posts

http://inporylem.com/forum/showthread.php?908-Let-s-have-a-conversation-on-economic-impact-of-recall..-gonna-be-a-long-read-sorry

The compromise I'm suggesting is for ALL DUNGEON'S FIRST LEVEL ON THE MAINLAND CAN BE RECALLED INTO AND GATED OUT OF BY ANY PLAYER WITHOUT "HIGH LEVEL" AFFILIATIONS. What I mean by "High Level" affiliations is they ARE NOT members of Chaos/Order, and they are NOT a Murderer/Paladin. I will explain now why I came to these conclusions, so please, read on.

Okay, this concept I'm proposing is because I DO understand the perspective that no recall at all for newbies in a dungeon might be in some situations a death sentence for them, a perspective fairly brought up in the previous thread. I do stand by my point of view that most newbies won't even know what recall is, BUT, as they discover gameplay mechanics, I agree, they probably should be able to use it if their knowledge of the game has been increasing, as we had the opportunity, so I do thank posters in the last thread who made this point clear.

BUT, I still feel like my initial post and argument had merit in the fact we DO NOT WANT DUNGEONS TO BECOME ATMS and we want to encourage the Paladin/Murderer dynamic, without the potential of a simple bottleneck at the entrance of Shame being how the dungeon operates.

So, here we go.

MOST of the games dungeon's first levels feature relatively easy, yet, if you give the proper time investment, lucrative spawn, skill and monetarily, for a newbie character. Shame has Earth Elementals, Wrong has I believe Ratmen/Ogres, Despise has similar low to mid level spawns, Covetous has the Harpy room and a few other monsters after that.. So, the reason I'm listing all of this is for this reason.

If a player is BLUE, with NO AFFILIATION, and when I say affiliation, I mean he is NOT PART OF ORDER/CHAOS, PALADIN, OR A MURDERER, that character may RECALL AND GATE OUT OF DUNGEON'S FIRST LEVELS. The reason for this change is these affiliations are reserved for advanced players, so the game DOES become harder for US, which it seemed to me everyone was essentially "okay" with, they just weren't in favor of the negative scenario this would create for newbies.

This allows the newbies to get a handle and a footing within the game, it is unlikely to create the bottleneck we were worried about in terms of PKs sitting at the tunnel in the front entrance and ENCOURAGES a Paladin to enter the dungeon, hide in a corner, pull up his "Orb of Truth" and WAIT inside the dungeon for a red to commit a crime, which the Paladin can try to exact QUICK retribution on because the red can't recall out of level 1 either.

NOW, this rule would also come with the stipulation, NO ONE IN THE GAME CAN RECALL OUT OF ANYTHING PAST LEVEL ONE, and to represent this, Sen could have a small message, pop up in the left hand corner saying something along the lines of "the evil of this place holds a barrier, not allowing escape with simple magic spells"

So, this encourages the dynamic of dungeons not becoming ATMs, because as we all know, the truly lucrative spawns will be deeper in the dungeon. This compromise, as far as my rationale is taking me also possibly helps the Paladin/Murderer dynamic by giving Paladins a likely hunting ground. And when it comes to the PKs, some will stick to lower levels, wanting to aim for higher class kills with better loot, but some will try to do raids on level one, which the blues can recall away from, OR, gang up on a pk and try to fight back, since they will likely be well concentrated there, AND the Paladins are more likely to venture into the dungeon to judge the circumstances than sit out front, waiting to see if blues are being chased by reds.

And because, even with recall, PK's may perceive this opening area of dungeons to be full of "easy targets", it will give Paladins a place to truly "defend the innocent".. Because, as much as I know its hard to imagine right now.. Paladins function is Kill Murderers OR PvE.. Thats it. When a Paladin signs on, he's going to want to kill Murderers, and, when they roll in, and attack his fellow players, they have an opportunity to assist the Paladin with maybe a paralyze, or, just recall out

Anyhow, that is my idea of a compromise to both systems, since I believe pretty much everyone who had been posting in the other thread has agreed, both concepts have serious merit, yet, theres holes in both ideas.

So, I submit this solution to all of you, whether you were involved in the last discussion or not, and look forward to responses and feedback.

[Boogie]

Gotta say, there are more then enough threads on the subject already, your specific opinion is not worthy of yet another. Not to mention all of them should be under the wind category, not general discussion.

[Baltar]

Thats fair, but considering the other two topics are the biggest threads on the forum and I think a bit too convoluted for others to join the discussion at this point, I don't see any amount of hurt it will cause. The point of this thread was to evolve the discussion that happened in the last, and bring to light the opposing viewpoints and concise it down so others who weren't involved can quickly read it over and understand why people in the other threads had differing viewpoints, which both threads are pushing a combined 100 posts.. I don't expect someone who recently joined the conversation to read through all of that.

[leviathan]

Once again I am extremely impressed by your diligence and forward thinking regarding this aggressively debated situation. I personally like this idea even better. I am not sure if you are even interested, but I feel Az should really contact you to further discuss ipy mechanics as a whole. You really seem to have a talent for this imo.

[leviathan]

Gotta say, there are more then enough threads on the subject already, your specific opinion is not worthy of yet another. Not to mention all of them should be under the wind category, not general discussion.

Boogie these are the types of discussions we need to make this server a long term success. Sure, this topic has been discussed several times. But not with the amount of thought, consideration, and overall strategy as his two post. Not even close. Maybe your comments should be moved to another category since you are obviously not contributing to a well written thread.

[Colonel Shuffle]

I like your idea, Baltar, and the reasons for it.

As an interrelated concern, I also like the idea others have mentioned--and I advocated for on the original thread--of having a teleporting gate throughout the dungeons that will spit a player out at a random location outside the dungeon entrance. I originally thought each level (except perhaps the 1st level) should have a teleporting gate, but the more I think about it maybe just one gate on, say, the 3rd level of each dungeon would suffice.

[Stigmas]

I agree there have been probably to many threads about this and it may not be a bad idea for the mods to merge them and make a Dungeon recall mega thread. I think this compromise perhaps does not do enough for the PvMers but I could see it working alot better then a flat no recall and think it be worth testing out.

[Jack]

The more I think about this idea the more I like it. I'll throw my hat in and say I would love for this to go forward as proposed.

Just to summarize the discussion a little thus far, in my own opinion:


No recall/gate in dungeons at all is a good thing because:

-It brings up the worth of gold by having less of it entering the system, and relatively speaking it shifts economic power slightly in favour of crafters

-It eliminates the lameness of using deep high level spawns as "ATM machines", blinking in with recall and blinking out without hardly any effort or community interaction, on a PvE character

-It increases community by forcing people to travel together and play together, with a travel restriction

-It makes dungeons scarier and more interesting in general (IMHO)

-It increases the significance of overworld spawns


No recall/gate allowed in dungeons is a bad thing because:

-It leaves newer and less skilled players, and intermediate players as well, very vulnerable to attacks by murderers, without their primary means of escape

-It creates bottlenecks that may serve as farming grounds for murderers

-The above two points can combine to see players quitting in frustration, and/or dungeons sparsely populated.



In my opinion this compromise - the ability for anyone to use travel spells on the first level of dungeons, except for reds and "affiliated" players (order/chaos and paladins) - is really pretty fantastic.

It maintains all of the above positive points about the removal of recall:

-high level spawns are still made less accessible than "atm style", so the worth of gold and importance of those deep spawns is increased

-Community is still encouraged by travel

-dungeons are still scary and interesting... but only the lower levels


And I think it deals with the negatives extremely well:

-Giving newer and intermediate players not just overworld spawns but the entirety of first level dungeons to roam and hunt in with recall available is lucrative. It is a legitimate way to make money and earn skills, and only the most adventurous will go lower into the dungeon.

-The bottleneck issue is resolved, as players can mark and recall anywhere they want on those top levels.



Additionally, with the inability of reds (and other higher level players) to recall in and out of first level, it forces reds to travel a little ways and risk alerting party members / victims about their whereabouts.

This may even turn the first dungeon level into a bit of a communal hotspot, where paladins hang out and blues PvE in peace, which then in turn makes the deeper levels of the dungeons a little bit less red-heavy.


I think this solution is quite awesome, and I would love to hear some constructive criticism of it.

[Boogie]

Boogie these are the types of discussions we need to make this server a long term success. Sure, this topic has been discussed several times. But not with the amount of thought, consideration, and overall strategy as his two post. Not even close. Maybe your comments should be moved to another category since you are obviously not contributing to a well written thread.

Forums are based on a response system for a reason, else we would all make our own threads and title them @so an so etc. The precedent being set here of "everyone look at my idea," is not healthy for the long term success of the shard.

While I consent and agree with some of the points and see the idea has thought to it, its still just adding one persons perspective to an already heavily debated issue, and in the wrong place. Starting a whole new thread on a topic that is already being discussed actively only leads to the same comments being resubmitted. If the original thread was long dead, i'm totally on board with a new thread with different ideas being made, but thats not the case.

[Baltar]

Forums are based on a response system for a reason, else we would all make our own threads and title them @so an so etc. The precedent being set here of "everyone look at my idea," is not healthy for the long term success of the shard.

While I consent and agree with some of the points and see the idea has thought to it, its still just adding one persons perspective to an already heavily debated issue, and in the wrong place. Starting a whole new thread on a topic that is already being discussed actively only leads to the same comments being resubmitted. If the original thread was long dead, i'm totally on board with a new thread with different ideas being made, but thats not the case.

I suppose I should make a point here and if the mods disagree with me, I fully understand. The fact is, of all the features going into IPY, this is the one that is GENUINELY up for debate and input, from what I can see. Kings are going in, Paladins are going in, Pirates are going in, and we are all happy about this.

I ONLY am putting this thread in the general discussion because, well, it is for general discussion, not necessarily random ideas for the server, and because I EMBRACE other player's inputs, I learned a lot about design philosophy from the last thread, and I wanted to build on that discussion by giving it another take off point which took into account people I would have disagreed with when I made my initial post. I apologize if people think I'm wasting their time or doing this for "post counts".. I really dont mean to portray that, just this an important subject for the server and I want us to have an open conversation.. As far as I understand it, the initial vision for the server was no recalling, I saw much merit to this, but, upon further thought, I'm seeing other perspectives, but like my initial post said, there are downsides to the OSI system that hurt the game fundamentally..

And, no offense to the Wind forum.. It has like 2 active viewers right now, this forum has 40 something.. I want OPINIONS and thoughts and CONVERSATION.. not much there to be had. If the mods disagree with me and want to move this thread, I understand, but, I think it's post count shows its an important enough conversation to be here.

[ReputableReprobate]

i think this is a great idea and i don't see any negative consequences from it being implemented.

i'd love to see an argument against it though(aka uniqueuser). ;D

[Boogie]

I suppose I should make a point here and if the mods disagree with me, I fully understand. The fact is, of all the features going into IPY, this is the one that is GENUINELY up for debate and input, from what I can see. Kings are going in, Paladins are going in, Pirates are going in, and we are all happy about this.

I ONLY am putting this thread in the general discussion because, well, it is for general discussion, not necessarily random ideas for the server, and because I EMBRACE other player's inputs, I learned a lot about design philosophy from the last thread, and I wanted to build on that discussion by giving it another take off point which took into account people I would have disagreed with when I made my initial post. I apologize if people think I'm wasting their time or doing this for "post counts".. I really dont mean to portray that, just this an important subject for the server and I want us to have an open conversation.. As far as I understand it, the initial vision for the server was no recalling, I saw much merit to this, but, upon further thought, I'm seeing other perspectives, but like my initial post said, there are downsides to the OSI system that hurt the game fundamentally..

And, no offense to the Wind forum.. It has like 2 active viewers right now, this forum has 40 something.. I want OPINIONS and thoughts and CONVERSATION.. not much there to be had. If the mods disagree with me and want to move this thread, I understand, but, I think it's post count shows its an important enough conversation to be here.

Again, this is not a personal attack against you. The simple fact of the matter is you are not discussing recall in general, you are talking about design aspects of the game and changing how mechanics works. That belongs in the design forum, the fact it has low current viewers is due to people not posting in it. Not because no one cares about design, the 3 different threads going on about recall are proof of that.

There is simply no reason to have a spin off thread. The idea would be seen in either of the other 2 recall threads, and kept everyones prior discussion in one place for a glorious full picture. And we certainly don't need to encourage others who would put far less effort into their thoughts to highlight their own ideas with a spin offs.

- for reference

http://inporylem.com/forum/showthread.php?914-Give-recall-in-dungeons-a-delay-dont-remove-it-completely&p=17600&viewfull=1#post17600

[Virindi]

Blue access only exit portals are still the best option and the easiest to code.

Gives the red a chance to kill, and the blue a chance to escape.

[uniqueuser]

Granting the ability to Recall/Gate on the first level of dungeons only to players without "high-level affiliations" is ungainly not only because it's contingent on a totally disconnected property, but because the game's notion of affiliation is so limited. It'd require additional special restrictions to prevent "advanced" players from using unguilded blue alts to gate out their ineligible companions, or reverse gate them in on top of unsuspecting victims, or other emergent abuses of the rule.

Even its sole purpose is of dubious value. It's attempting to guard a minority from circumstances for which they should've already been prepared long before they first ventured into a dungeon. That indicates an assumption that the game is failing to adequately acclimate new players.

If that's true, then it's a situation that must be remedied by providing newbies with better structured activities and more instructive feedback early on, because the farther a safety net is extended, the more likely it is to also catch those it wasn't designed to protect.

[Quantum]

No recall in, allow recall out.

Or let scribes make the only scrolls that let you recall out of dungeons, and make it an economy thing.

But there should never ever ever be recall allowed INTO dungeons.

[Boogie]

lol ultimate idea time!!

Disable all recall/gating in or out of dungeons. THEN... wait for it . ..

Introduce a new epic spell scroll called Dungeon Recall. Make it super rare and all that jazz. Talk about an ego boosting, e-peen lengthener !!!

[K Fed]

If theres no recall in/out of dungeons, gold weight needs to be lowered. A fully geared pvmer can carry maybe 5-7k gp.

In the other thread someone said they want it to be an achievement unto itself to get down to the blood eles. Well, with no recall nobody is going to go that far down. It takes 10 minutes to run that deep, about 15 minutes to farm up 7k, and then 10 more minutes to run out? Youre spending more time redundantly running back and forth through a fken dungeon than you are actually playing. Lets forget about pks for a bit, and focus on the fact that its an extremely annoying inconvenience, and that all shards with no recall in/out of dungeons have empty dungeons.

[uniqueuser]

It takes 10 minutes to run that deep, about 15 minutes to farm up 7k, and then 10 more minutes to run out?I just timed it. 2:46 from the entrance to the middle of Shame 4, on foot.

Way to exaggerate.

[Tank]

and that all shards with no recall in/out of dungeons have empty dungeons. this is the end result of no recall in dungeons after pve'rs and newbs get destroyed a few times from gank party reds. A lot of people think they are so smart by "helping keep inflation low" but in the end youll just have a dead shard with really low inflation, yay

[gzuf]

The more I think about this idea the more I like it. I'll throw my hat in and say I would love for this to go forward as proposed.

Just to summarize the discussion a little thus far, in my own opinion:


No recall/gate in dungeons at all is a good thing because:

-It brings up the worth of gold by having less of it entering the system, and relatively speaking it shifts economic power slightly in favour of crafters

-It eliminates the lameness of using deep high level spawns as "ATM machines", blinking in with recall and blinking out without hardly any effort or community interaction, on a PvE character

-It increases community by forcing people to travel together and play together, with a travel restriction

-It makes dungeons scarier and more interesting in general (IMHO)

-It increases the significance of overworld spawns


No recall/gate allowed in dungeons is a bad thing because:

-It leaves newer and less skilled players, and intermediate players as well, very vulnerable to attacks by murderers, without their primary means of escape

-It creates bottlenecks that may serve as farming grounds for murderers

-The above two points can combine to see players quitting in frustration, and/or dungeons sparsely populated.



In my opinion this compromise - the ability for anyone to use travel spells on the first level of dungeons, except for reds and "affiliated" players (order/chaos and paladins) - is really pretty fantastic.

It maintains all of the above positive points about the removal of recall:

-high level spawns are still made less accessible than "atm style", so the worth of gold and importance of those deep spawns is increased

-Community is still encouraged by travel

-dungeons are still scary and interesting... but only the lower levels


And I think it deals with the negatives extremely well:

-Giving newer and intermediate players not just overworld spawns but the entirety of first level dungeons to roam and hunt in with recall available is lucrative. It is a legitimate way to make money and earn skills, and only the most adventurous will go lower into the dungeon.

-The bottleneck issue is resolved, as players can mark and recall anywhere they want on those top levels.



Additionally, with the inability of reds (and other higher level players) to recall in and out of first level, it forces reds to travel a little ways and risk alerting party members / victims about their whereabouts.

This may even turn the first dungeon level into a bit of a communal hotspot, where paladins hang out and blues PvE in peace, which then in turn makes the deeper levels of the dungeons a little bit less red-heavy.


I think this solution is quite awesome, and I would love to hear some constructive criticism of it.

Great post. I agree with this idea. It is not a simple solution, if you disallow recall there are a lot of foreseeable negatives, if you allow recall we all know the negatives. I feel like this gives it a pretty equal balance.

[Baltar]

this is the end result of no recall in dungeons after pve'rs and newbs get destroyed a few times from gank party reds. A lot of people think they are so smart by "helping keep inflation low" but in the end youll just have a dead shard with really low inflation, yay

But this is where the issue in and of itself arises.. We have new gameplay mechanics that PUNISH reds, Im willing to bet these servers you speak of didnt even have stat loss on reds, this server has that and more as a punishment. This isnt about artificially keeping the inflation low or protecting new players, it's about taking a mistake OSI made, which was making dungeons an ATM machine for players, doing an attempted fix on that, and trying to see what RESULT it would have on the rest of the game, plus the experience of being in a dungeon, in general. All you've experienced is murderer ridden dungeons, because the games haven't given players to a REASON to STOP that, now, the players have the tools to curb it. These ideas, I hope, will help in bringing back a mild sense of adventure to the game, being down in blood ele room with a friend, not KNOWING whats behind you in the dungeon, and know you have to make that trip back. Just like someone else said, this isnt a HUGE time investment, 2 minutes 40 seconds to get to blood ele room, but it will ENHANCE everyone's own gameplay experience by creating a little something we all seem to have forgotten is the basis of exciting and stressful gameplay, genre being irrelevant... The UNKNOWN

Not knowing how many reds may be behind.. Not knowing Paladins are up there right now, not knowing if youre going to get to the 1st level and see Blue corpses everywhere and have to THINK of a way to get out of 1st level. God forbid, using your brain to outwit 2 or 3 PKs, running back down to level 2 with your boy, both of you summoning deamons, both of you precasting teleport of invisibility, both of you cross healing eachother, just to get to that exit, all of these things are PERFECTLY POSSIBLE... and for the newbies, they get to tap recall.

Are people really so against the idea of giving themselves a challenge, and seeing what the result is on the game's economy, newbie population?

Anyhow, I'm hoping this further explains the basis of the idea, and removes the need for veiled insults like.. "A lot of people think they are so smart by "helping keep inflation low" "

On another note, and edited in...

I would also like to add, as I think I've seen a few people here reference the idea that the affiliated players not being able to recall into level 1 is an artificial way of restricting them, I'd like the opportunity to address this. I did not put that rule in these as a way of saying "Guess what, you know how to play obviously, YOU DONT GET TO DO THAT".. you could totally keep a 7x GM character out of these affiliations and be able to recall into level 1, no problem, I didn't properly emphasize the other reasoning, on top of their likely personal skill in the game. A GM tamer with his two dragons can recall right to the END OF LEVEL 1, then work his way through the dungeon, im not utterly hampering his gameplay experience with this, if anything, encouraging tamers to stay out of pvsp :o (lol, thats an unfair personal vendetta and was not the reasoning behind this rule, moving on :) )

These people, in these affiliations, made a pact, in the game, to have a MORTAL ENEMY. For Chaos members, Order members are their mortal enemy... For Paladins, Murderers are their mortal enemy

I wanted to, with this idea, try to encourage that relationship.. A Chaos guy and his blue friend (which blue healing is disabled, so would be unable to help) run into an Order guy in level 3 Shame.. In all reality, if the Chaos guy didn't feel equipped, he'd just recall in old UO.. Here we are though, this Chaos guy can RUN, but he has to put some EFFORT into that run, meanwhile, the Order guy has a CHANCE the Chaos guy may take a longer route, and the Order guy gets to CHASE DOWN his enemy.

My point is, dungeons are an interesting place in UO where we can shift the dynamic, for all these things, Blues, Reds, Paladins, Order, Chaos, and hell, if the dungeon has some water, maybe even Pirates too :p

My suggestions are just suggestions, open to criticism, but, I would appreciate it if people didn't cast aside eachother's ideas as "theyve been done already and failed" because limited dungeon recall has never been done with this kind of ruleset, so, what I would ask is, get involved in the conversation.. And if you agree with many of us that we want to avoid dungeons being banks with monsters, lets all discuss together how to bring back the excitement, and the risk.

Thanks again for reading my obscenely long posts :) lol

[Tank]

Downside of no recall in dungeons:

-Certain dungeons with many levels i.e. Hythloth, Shame, Deceit become deserted over time due to the travel inconvenience. No one will go there because it isnt worth it, both blues and reds.

-No pvp or pve action in deserted dead dungeons where no one goes

-New players, inexperienced players, pve'ers get constantly slaughtered by para gank red squads and thus quit (this will happen). These people die enough with full recall enabled.

-Dungeons eventually become empty because it's basically a guaranteed death sentence for newer players if they get caught in "no recall zones".

If you want to reduce the reward that you think people should have then just lower the amount of gold from monster spawns. Instead of a lich dropping 300 gold let it drop 150. The player will have to farm twice as long to get the same monetary reward and with that player there twice as long he will have a greater chance of running into a pk that will have the chance to kill him. This will stimulate more action in dungeons than just totally removing recall completely in the first place that basically GUARANTEES the death of newer, inexperienced players that farm in dungeons.

No dungeon recall is a VERY anti-pvp/action feature that restricts travel thus takes away the action from dungeons in the form of PVP battles etc.

Keeping recall would INCREASE DUNGEON ACTIVITY and lowering the gold from monsters would also increase activity by making the player stay there twice as long if he wants to be hansomely rewarded. We all know if the person is there longer they have greater chance to be involved in some player vs player conflict

[Baltar]

Downside of no recall in dungeons:

-Certain dungeons with many levels i.e. Hythloth, Shame, Deceit become deserted over time due to the travel inconvenience.

-New players, inexperienced players, pve'ers get constantly slaughtered by para gank red squads and thus quit (this will happen)

-Dungeons eventually become empty because it's basically a guaranteed death sentence for newer players if they get caught in "no recall zones".

If you want to reduce the reward that you think people should have then just lower the amount of gold from monster spawns. Instead of a lich dropping 300 gold let it drop 150. The player will have to farm twice as long to get the same monetary reward and with that player there twice as long he will have a greater chance of running into a pk that will have the chance to kill him. This will stimulate more action in dungeons than just totally removing recall completely in the first place that basically GUARANTEES the death of newer, inexperienced players that farm in dungeons.




.

The gold is just a part of the mechanic we are trying to create here, its about the gold, partially, absolutely, but, its the point of bringing a little bit of adventure to this game

We ALL marvel at how different UO is from other games, lets tone down this simplistic farming mechanic together, and in the process, make our gameplay experience more diverse.. Not just "recall into elder gazer room today with 3 friends.. pwn elder gazers for 2 hours.. see red name off screen, all 3 of us recall"

Also remember, theres NO MOUNTS HERE.. and we have approaching players names.. You will have a chance to get away from any reds you see, if you play your cards right.. and I've already discussed the effectiveness this Paladin dynamic might have, we just dont know. All im just suggesting is an experiment.. if my hypothesis is totally wrong, you guys can pk me :)

[McCool]

Only problem I see with this is that the level two entrance to every dungeon will be a huge bottle neck. Most of them can be ran to by reds in less than 20 seconds from any dungeon entrance.

[Baltar]

Only problem I see with this is that the level two entrance to every dungeon will be a huge bottle neck. Most of them can be ran to by reds in less than 20 seconds from any dungeon entrance.

That is TOTALLY, TOTALLY a potential possibility.. We need to see how it works out.. What I do submit for your thought..

The monetary penalty for a red dying to a paladin, at this point, is up to debate, but right now, its looking like 10-15k per murder.. We are going to pretend no red, in his right mind, will take the stat loss.. The penalty to a Paladin, who decides to run in naked, with 2 buddies and nothing but Ebolt regs.. Nothing other than they lose those Ebolt regs, they go res, as normal, no problem, they only have a penalty if they bring their Paladin gear.. And.. only ONE has to be a Paladin, as long as he helps with damage

So, in theory, if a Red just gets triple teamed, even if he has 3 buds there, he catches 4 Ebolts from these Paladins, lets pretend he has 9 counts... Hes gotta pay like 100k just to res, and with this overall dungeon ruleset.. 100k is going to be alot, I really foresee Reds having to make money on other chars for days and days to res themselves at some points.. but anyway, the penalty for those Paladins? They lose their ebolt regs, they get to run to a wandering healer, laughing their ass off.. I really do foresee reds having some issues here, not so much the blues, but, these are dynamics we can't guarantee and will have to be seen how they work out, absolutely.

[Stigmas]

Its not the fact that you cant recall thats going to get most people killed, its the fact that the dungeons are one way in and out so if a pk comes there is no were to run. Don't underestimate how annoyed people will get when they get killed with out even a chance of getting away.

I don't think anyone here want to see dungeons become a atm for farmers but you have to understand dungeons need to be built in favor of the farmers getting there gold and getting away and currently every thing is in favor of the pk.

also a point on the paladin system as some how safe guarding dungeons. There is really no incentive for them to protect blues, kill reds sure but protect blues? Pallys will be dashing in and out of dungeons looking for reds not spending much time and when they do see a blue farmer whats to stop them from logging on the red and killing him there self for his loot?

[Baltar]

Well, I think what youll see happening is it going in waves, reds raiding a dungeons, Paladins coming in after their orb tells them murders are going on, Reds realizing theres a few Paladins there and avoiding that dungeon for hours, its going to be back and forth.. And as far as there being no where to go, some dungeons dont have much in the way of variety, this is true, then you have others like Shame and Destard that have plenty of directions a player can run, even Despise I think was pretty varied in routes..

The one of the top of my head that was the a true "tunnel" was Covetous, but that entire first level will recall out able for players without these affiliations.

But again, as Ive said in basically all my posts, Im not an absolutist in thought, and these issues wouldnt be issues for atleast 5-10 weeks, these reds are going to be building characters, we can experiment and SEE how the situation evolves, problem is, if we allow you to recall into out of Wyrm room from the beginning.. People will never be accepting of it going back cause theyll realize their imbalanced gold farming ability is now being tampered with

[Septus]

Gotta say, there are more then enough threads on the subject already, your specific opinion is not worthy of yet another. Not to mention all of them should be under the wind category, not general discussion.

And here I thought Baltar was some sort of authority here.

[Bobby Digital]

Keep in mind all dungeons will have an extra level added to them. So 5 levels on most (or all?) dungeons. I like the OP's idea but what about expanding it to the first two levels?

[Septus]

The gold is just a part of the mechanic we are trying to create here, its about the gold, partially, absolutely, but, its the point of bringing a little bit of adventure to this game

It's always about the gold. You can have good content, but if it's more efficient to farm rat valley or compassion because you can recall out, people will do it. And then because everyone just finds their own private spawn in the middle of nowhere, you have NO traffic.

No recall in dungeons isn't new, it's been done. Reds will use blue scouts and be completely safe, popping in for easy kills on PvM'ers when the PvP'ers/paladins can't respond, etc. It's just way too easy to game this kind of system.

[Baltar]

It's always about the gold. You can have good content, but if it's more efficient to farm rat valley or compassion because you can recall out, people will do it. And then because everyone just finds their own private spawn in the middle of nowhere, you have NO traffic.

No recall in dungeons isn't new, it's been done. Reds will use blue scouts and be completely safe, popping in for easy kills on PvM'ers when the PvP'ers/paladins can't respond, etc. It's just way too easy to game this kind of system.

You may be absolutely right, I don't know how this system would be exploited.. But, I am expecting a large amount of Paladins.. They have NO PvE downside. PvE'ers, I believe, will largely be Paladins, the only downside is the one I've suggested about limiting their recall..

If someone is obsessed with dungeon crawling, and become a Paladin, they can turn their very EXISTENCE into a threat to a PK, by simply BEING a Paladin. I really do predict a lot of Paladins.. And, I foresee a lot of reds running away from them. At first atleast, thats going to be an interesting evolution to watch, and true newbies can avoid being a Paladin to farm the first level and beginning of second

[Septus]

And, I foresee a lot of reds running away from them.

Okay you don't get it. They won't run away from them, they will scout with blues. They will only COME if they can gank whatever's waiting for them.

Unless players just sit at dungeons waiting for reds to show, the PvM'ers will be on the chopping block. And since this is a game, we can't expect people to just sit there waiting with their free/game time. We pay people to do that kind of stuff irl.

And hey, maybe we could offer some monetary reward to paladins simply for "patrolling." ie. a paladin gets gold for being at an "outpost" like a dungeon entrance. Sure he's just standing there, but really that's what every player not engaged in PvP is doing, and he's performing a service equal to any crafter/PvM'er. Still I don't know how many players would just stand guard with their game time, even if there was gold involved. And offering too much gold would lead to obvious abuse.

[Baltar]

Okay you don't get it. They won't run away from them, they will scout with blues. They will only COME if they can gank whatever's waiting for them.


Unless players just sit at dungeons waiting for reds to show, the PvM'ers will be on the chopping block. And since this is a game, we can't expect people to just sit there waiting with their free/game time. We pay people to do that kind of stuff irl.

And hey, maybe we could offer some monetary reward to paladins simply for "patrolling." ie. a paladin gets gold for being at an "outpost" like a dungeon entrance. Sure he's just standing there, but really that's what every player not engaged in PvP is doing, and he's performing a service equal to any crafter/PvM'er. Still I don't know how many players would just stand guard with their game time, even if there was gold involved. And offering too much gold would lead to obvious abuse.

My point isn't that the blues wont be there, its that.. these blue PvMers are going to be Paladins. There is no downside to this character class, if you're a Pvmer, I really feel like the Paladin system is going to have two groups, those who are HUNTING murderers and those who use it as a DETERRENT against murderers, but if they dont want to sacrifice their ability to quickly recall into 1st level dungeons, they dont become Paladins.

And the "okay you dont get it" was a bit unnecessary, everyone in both these threads has had differing view points but very few seem to feel the need to make it derogatory, I've been the first to say that the my idea is flawed, like all others. You can make your case without the need to portray yourself as being superior to the rest of us.

I would also like to point out.. Would you rather these aspect of the game, them "scouting with blues" be something as easy as, 3 reds chilling in their guild house, "hey guys, im gonna go check if anyones at Shame Blood eles. Kal Ort Port".. 7 seconds pass "yep, theres people there"

Or.. that blue scout has to run to blood eles, and run back out to insta log to come back in and join the fight.. This is one instance I'm going to say my idea IS better, with little doubt.

[Faded]

it's a good idea, but there are a lot of possible solutions, the idea should be to find the best one.

maybe all blue players should be able to recall out?(not paladins or order/chaos) maybe there should be a gate on every level for an exit that only blues can enter. i only skimmed through this thread, but there are some good ideas that are better than just no recall/gate in or out. everyone pretty much agrees no recall in is good. but it seems it would be nice for general blue players, especially new players, that they have an exit or be able to recall out. no gate out for obvious reasons.

[K Fed]

I just timed it. 2:46 from the entrance to the middle of Shame 4, on foot.

Way to exaggerate.

Ohhh, ok, good. WHEW. So if I'm farming I only have to spend 20 minutes of every hour running back and forth.

It gets old after about 10 or so trips, and you will have nobody beyond the 2nd floor of any dungeon. Kinda puts a damper on the new extra floors they are adding.

[Tank]

Ohhh, ok, good. WHEW. So if I'm farming I only have to spend 20 minutes of every hour running back and forth.

It gets old after about 10 or so trips, and you will have nobody beyond the 2nd floor of any dungeon. Kinda puts a damper on the new extra floors they are adding.

oh yes you might have to run around 20 minutes an hour but that will help lower inflation *rolls eyes* inflation isnt even bad, it wasnt on the original IPY. Inflation is only bad on shards like hybrid where you can buy 1 mill for like 5$. Even divinity inflation wasnt all that bad.

[indah]

if you make the incentive to go to the bottoms level worth while, people will go. Hell make rare decor spawn on mobs down there and I guarantee there will be people farming that because everyone knows UO is all about having the most badass house on the block.

[uniqueuser]

oh yes you might have to run around 20 minutes an hour but that will help lower inflation *rolls eyes* inflation isnt even bad, it wasnt on the original IPY. Inflation is only bad on shards like hybrid where you can buy 1 mill for like 5$. Even divinity inflation wasnt all that bad.Aww, how cute. You're like a tenacious little terrier who's clamped his jaws around this one incidental detail, as if it were the main bone of contention, and just won't let go.

[Tank]

Aww, how cute. You're like a tenacious little terrier who's clamped his jaws around this one incidental detail, as if it were the main bone of contention, and just won't let go.

well not being able to recall to dungeons is a big issue for me. I know that nothing I or anyone else says will change it from being reality but at least i know i tried.

[Jack]

Granting the ability to Recall/Gate on the first level of dungeons only to players without "high-level affiliations" is ungainly not only because it's contingent on a totally disconnected property, but because the game's notion of affiliation is so limited. It'd require additional special restrictions to prevent "advanced" players from using unguilded blue alts to gate out their ineligible companions, or reverse gate them in on top of unsuspecting victims, or other emergent abuses of the rule.

It is a little bit 'rulesy' I agree; personally I would be for limiting the ability of only murderers, and allowing everyone else to gate/recall on level 1's.

I don't think it would be much trouble to make it so reds couldn't enter/exit gates, either.




Even its sole purpose is of dubious value. It's attempting to guard a minority from circumstances for which they should've already been prepared long before they first ventured into a dungeon. That indicates an assumption that the game is failing to adequately acclimate new players.

If that's true, then it's a situation that must be remedied by providing newbies with better structured activities and more instructive feedback early on, because the farther a safety net is extended, the more likely it is to also catch those it wasn't designed to protect.

Here I'm not so sure; I don't mind the idea of having level 1 of dungeons be a bit more recall friendly, to help with this acclimation process.

What is your feeling on the issue in general? Would you prefer having recall/gate removed from dungeons completely?

[Jack]

well not being able to recall to dungeons is a big issue for me. I know that nothing I or anyone else says will change it from being reality but at least i know i tried.

I believe most people here, in this thread in particular - and the shard admins as well - are not particularly self-interested with these issues. I think most genuinely want what is best for the shard as a whole, and want to see a game that succeeds at being fun.

So if you have a good argument for or against the idea, I would encourage you to give it, and try to really get at the concerns you have about something like this working well.

I believe though that people have to try to see beyond the level of 'personal convenience', in order to give the issue the sincere judgment it deserves.

[Bisquick]

I suggested a while ago on the other thread about having 1 or 2 gates in dungeons that pop you a few screens out of the dungeon. I don't think only blues should be able to enter them however, the chase should continue outside of a dungeon, but now the blue can recall if need be.

I don't really support most the ideas on here because they have things that can be exploited.

One other I have is allow gate as a blue only out of dungeons work. Wait, before you think its retarded, and easily exploitable. This gate would turn into a gate like one on a UOR shard. So that the gate can only be used to exit the dungeon. Wherever it may go, a town, a house, a tree in the woods. It becomes black/grey like on UOR and can't be entered.

Now, we can expand this and go 1 of 2 ways. Only blues can walk through gates in dungeons, or anyone can walk in. If reds can walk through, obviously his blue friend or alt can gate him out. But he could also try chasing a blue through a gate and get guardwhacked, which is always satisfying to every pvmer.

One problem, with this and almost everything else added in here is as uniqueuser has stated, how do you truly know an affiliation. Blues can pk too, there are a lot of people who will pk on a blue and work their murders off, this happens everywhere. Also what about greys? A lot of times in UO I have been attacked by blues and reds, or by reds, who have a bunch of blues who heal them.

Another idea is to make it so recall only works for blues, not greys, and it takes as long as a blade spirit to cast while in a dungeon, so there isn't the possibility of someone else going into it, but if you really are a *****, you can run around with your recall pre-casted all day, you wont be able to make any gold like that, but some people will, still I'm not completely for this, but its another idea I had.

This is why I mostly only stand by having a gate or two in each dungeon that exits a player out of that dungeon, because it seems to be the least flawed/exploitable. Sure a huge red ganksquad may have people positioned at the entrances and each gate, but huge ganksquads are always in some way problematic, and can only be countered by really good pvpers, or an equally sized squad of bad pvpers.

[Biohazard]

Gotta say, there are more then enough threads on the subject already, your specific opinion is not worthy of yet another. Not to mention all of them should be under the wind category, not general discussion.

agreed.. im tired of this hashing and rehashing..

[Jack]

I don't really support most the ideas on here because they have things that can be exploited.



With regards to the idea of allowing recall on the top floor of a dungeon only, can you be more specific about possible exploits?



One other I have is allow gate as a blue only out of dungeons work. Wait, before you think its retarded, and easily exploitable. This gate would turn into a gate like one on a UOR shard. So that the gate can only be used to exit the dungeon. Wherever it may go, a town, a house, a tree in the woods. It becomes black/grey like on UOR and can't be entered.

Having recall/gate work for leaving only is one possible solution, however I feel that it sacrifices the potential danger and intensity of dungeons where recall is not allowed at all. It also leaves half the 'atm machine' problem.



One problem, with this and almost everything else added in here is as uniqueuser has stated, how do you truly know an affiliation. Blues can pk too, there are a lot of people who will pk on a blue and work their murders off, this happens everywhere. Also what about greys? A lot of times in UO I have been attacked by blues and reds, or by reds, who have a bunch of blues who heal them.


I really don't think this will be a huge issue. Everywhere you go in UO, you might get attacked by a blue sometime. I don't think we need to fix or address this.

As for reds and blues teaming up, again, it happens. It is however even less likely to happen in a dungeon where reds cannot use recall, while their blue allies can.



Another idea is to make it so recall only works for blues, not greys, and it takes as long as a blade spirit to cast while in a dungeon, so there isn't the possibility of someone else going into it, but if you really are a *****, you can run around with your recall pre-casted all day, you wont be able to make any gold like that, but some people will, still I'm not completely for this, but its another idea I had.


I've seen the 'lengthening recall cast' idea bandied around a fair bit, but I don't understand it at all. It seems to me that it still allows dungeons to be treated like ATM machines, it still removes most of the danger and intense sense of going 'deeper' into a dungeon, and on top of that it removes the one thing that people AGAINST removing recall from dungeons are worried about losing: the ability to escape from reds. This idea seems to have all of the drawbacks and none of the benefits of removing recall from dungeons.



This is why I mostly only stand by having a gate or two in each dungeon that exits a player out of that dungeon, because it seems to be the least flawed/exploitable. Sure a huge red ganksquad may have people positioned at the entrances and each gate, but huge ganksquads are always in some way problematic, and can only be countered by really good pvpers, or an equally sized squad of bad pvpers.

Again, could you clarify what you mean by exploitable, with regards to the 'recall on top floor only' idea? I'm not being coy, I would like to know if this is a potentially functional mechanic.

[uniqueuser]

What is your feeling on the issue in general? Would you prefer having recall/gate removed from dungeons completely?I don't especially have a preference.

The last OSI shard I played on was Siege Perilous (where Recall was completely disabled and Gate was the only means of instant travel, though unusable to and from dungeons, no matter the level or player). Under these circumstances, ghost-scouting, maligned as it is, was the great equalizer. Both reds and blues alike monitored one another's movements into and out of the dungeons. With that advance warning, the latter often had time to hide away from the spawn so that incoming PKs on their way to the bottom would pass them by and they could then make an unobstructed break for the exit. Some farmers would even use a bedroll to log out. Upon arriving at the scene, all you'd see were the dying embers of a campfire.

By contrast, every freeshard I've played on has allowed both spells without restriction. In my experience, it probably helped at least as often as it hindered. The surprise factor of dropping in on someone when they least expect it can't be discounted. On so many occasions I witnessed players standing fixed in one place, stupidly spamming Recall in desperation while they were repeatedly interrupted and then downed, waiting until it was too late before deciding to flee.

Both systems ultimately tended toward equilibrium, in spite of any inherent design flaws, because the successful players adapted their behavior to best suit the environment. Whatever the rules governing these spells on IPY2, all players must be subject to them.

"Won't somebody please think of the [newbies]!?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo)
There's this pervasive mentality, mostly among the survivors of freeshards that have since withered and died, that new players are so fragile and temperamental that they must be protected from negative experiences, else they're liable to leave at the first feeling of frustration and never look back.

It's a futile approach. Someone who'd quit over being PK'd in a dungeon a few times is the sort of person who can't be retained long-term, anyway. Affording special, nonsensical allowances to new players doesn't teach them anything, it doesn't prepare them for later challenges, and it doesn't even ensure that they'll continue playing. All that for the cost of creating inconsistencies in the fiction of the game (at best) and/or giving rise to emergent exploits (at worst) that can't be resolved without introducing more inconsistencies. What a bargain. :rolleyes:


It gets old after about 10 or so trips, and you will have nobody beyond the 2nd floor of any dungeon. Kinda puts a damper on the new extra floors they are adding.
Deserted dungeons are more indicative of a declining population than any rules limiting the use of travel spells within them. When IPY1 was on the wane, I'd find so many "hotspots" devoid of life while doing my rounds that I resorted to carrying my dungeon runebooks with me to save on mana/reagents burned recalling back home.

[russell]

Both systems ultimately tended toward equilibrium, in spite of any inherent design flaws, because the successful players adapted their behavior to best suit the environment. Whatever the rules governing these spells on IPY2, all players must be subject to them.

this. Always go with more freedom first. players will adapt. i know i plan to.

[Stylish]

Blue access only exit portals are still the best option and the easiest to code.

Gives the red a chance to kill, and the blue a chance to escape.

Either this.
OR make it impossible to mark runes inside dungeons and make the recall spell longer to cast. This will serve the same purpose and will also be easy to code.


You can't get in but you can get out.
There will be a higher chance for PKs to get their kills.
Achievable goal to escape for Blue players, fate still lies in their hands.
Going down the dungeons will become an "adventure".
The overall income will be lowered because of time and risk.
Venturing down a dungeon will not be too boring.

[Bisquick]

[QUOTE=Jack;17879]With regards to the idea of allowing recall on the top floor of a dungeon only, can you be more specific about possible exploits? (It appears I fücked up this quote). :(

First, you are concerned about atms? The first floor of destard isn't an atm? What about the ogre lords in wrong. I haven't looked into if IPY has t2a or not, so first floor of tera keep? The whole thing is a first floor. People who want to be "atms" will be in these places. So, in effect a dungeon with a good first floor will kill the others. If you want to allow reds to recall into the dungeons with good first floors, and not the ones with crappy first floors, like despise, then that seems fine, since only noobs are in despise level 1. No nooby should trek to destard level 1 though, so the whole protect nooby from reds/quiting argument doesn't apply to each dungeon. Each dungeon is different. I wouldn't be against having a different idea for each dungeon because of that. Having some set up thing that is the rule for every single dungeon is bad though, and what about the new skill based dungeons, how will it affect those?

Could I potentially wall of stone a red, or enemy in o/c, into the first level of a dungeon and have 4 of my blue friends pop in while he is about to get buttfücked.
It doesn't solve the real issue of enemy or pk ganksquads, which is generally the issue not solo-pks, at least for anyone who is reading these forums and has any knowledge of UO fundamentals. They can still recall and stack up at both entrances, but again this goes back to what dungeon your in. Its a lot easier to run from a gank while in wind level 3 than it is while in shame or covetous 3.

Also, will wall of stone, and energy field be allowed in dungeons where recall is, if so this is a huge problem, (more an o/c problem, than red/blue since it seems like the large consequences for being red compared to the great advantages to being a paladin, will make red/blue pvp weak on IPY2, and O/C pvp strong, but that is a completely different issue). Still being able to 6v1 a guy, or 6v2 two guys, in a place where they can't recall and can be easily walled, like a bridge, or thin walkway makes dungeon crawling very stupid. And having someone able to recall off level 1, but not level 3 or 4 still wont solve this specific issue.

And again, back to the differences in dungeons debate. Can't you exit covetous between each level, thus you could recall away from each level, once you got into the mountain above covetous? What about the sparkles/portals already in wrong? Wrong seems like a very safe place to hunt under the 1st level recall allowed ideas.

Oh wow, I completely forgot about fire and ice dungeons, (if t2a is on the shard, hell even if it isn't these 2 dungeons could potentially still be opened, just have the t2a entrances blocked off). I could just mark a rune on ice level 1, which would be right next to the Ice fiend room, or next to the white wyrm. Or next to efreets/daemons in fire level 1.

These are just some of the concerns.

I see benefits from both having recall allowed, and blocked off, and see very little benefit from having both fully in effect, but also see very little benefit from allowing it on the first level of ALL dungeons, some sounds more realistic.

[Septus]

There's this pervasive mentality, mostly among the survivors of freeshards that have since withered and died, that new players are so fragile and temperamental that they must be protected from negative experiences, else they're liable to leave at the first feeling of frustration and never look back.

It's a futile approach. Someone who'd quit over being PK'd in a dungeon a few times is the sort of person who can't be retained long-term, anyway.

I'm not talking about newbies, I'm talking about the PvM population. The people who don't play to PvP. And while the risk of PK's getting them is something that interests them, they will NOT be able to compete with them (especially with a PvM build) without recall.

The reason PK's can PK is because there are thousands of PvM'ers EACH of whom don't mind getting killed once in a while. I really doubt these people will play a shard where they're forced to fight the PK.

And yes, ghost scouts will help - I'm not sure what the IPY stance on multi-clienting is though. At the very least paladin orbs should notify anti's whenever reds enter a dungeon (some X tiles in so reds can't just spam the alert one tile from the entrance, aka recall zone).

Also Bisquick is right about the abuses of no recall dungeons. trap me with walls as a blue, I can't fight you, can't recall out, I'm just ****ed.

[uniqueuser]

At the very least paladin orbs should notify anti's whenever reds enter a dungeon (some X tiles in so reds can't just spam the alert one tile from the entrance, aka recall zone).The usefulness of your proposal (which is already dubious because it's limited to dungeons) is entirely dependent on the implementation of the OP's.

If Recall/Gate isn't allowed in dungeons, reds needn't even enter them in the first place. They'll just make camp outside the entrance, raising no alarm on the orb.

If Recall/Gate is allowed (to everyone), but only on the first level of dungeons, reds will just recall to the L1<->L2 teleporters to meet anyone enroute from L2 as they're about to surface. Thus we're back to paladins not receiving enough advance warning and the potential for spamming.

[Zaa]

I'm not talking about newbies, I'm talking about the PvM population. The people who don't play to PvP. And while the risk of PK's getting them is something that interests them, they will NOT be able to compete with them (especially with a PvM build) without recall.

The reason PK's can PK is because there are thousands of PvM'ers EACH of whom don't mind getting killed once in a while. I really doubt these people will play a shard where they're forced to fight the PK.

And yes, ghost scouts will help - I'm not sure what the IPY stance on multi-clienting is though. At the very least paladin orbs should notify anti's whenever reds enter a dungeon (some X tiles in so reds can't just spam the alert one tile from the entrance, aka recall zone).

Also Bisquick is right about the abuses of no recall dungeons. trap me with walls as a blue, I can't fight you, can't recall out, I'm just ****ed.

Your statement about not being able to PvP on a PvM build is not exactly accurate.One most certainly can PvP on not only a Tamer but also on a Bard. I have seen it done and I have done it. But I will give into the fact it does take skill.Something I hope many of the PvMers will take up if for nothing else something new to evolve into other than Monster bashing.