If you regard yourself as a "top tier" mage...

[Myspacetom]

Here's a quote from the person who won the Magincia tournament:


Domnu
We are familiar with the way that highly skilled dexxers currently operate. They can be an utter nightmare to fight against. Not only are they virtually impossible to kill even outnumbered, but they can usually win a 2v1 pretty handily. If you just turn around and give them MORE tools to fight with, that is not balancing PvP. That is just giving a handicap to the people playing that skillset that are not good enough at the game to compete.


They can be an utter nightmare to fight against.

Not only are they virtually impossible to kill even outnumbered, but they can usually win a 2v1 pretty handily.


If you're a top tier mage with master/grandmaster magery, then I have a question to ask you. How many "nightmare" players (aka dexxers) have you DIED to?

Can you please list their names and the circumstances of your death? They have to have landed the killing blow, them getting you down to 40% for a mage to finish you off doesn't count.

Then I have another question for those who do post names, if names are posted. Do you think you're a top tier mage when you've died to a character that has to be within 1 tile of you to deal damage and has no effective finishers?

[Myspacetom]

I'm Link from C2W formally of DoS. I was owned by a dexxer named Myspacetom. He trapped me against a wall at gargoyle's, a multifloor maze of 1 tile wide panels that severely hinders movements and multiple chokepoints, and started beating me in the face while I had half mana. I teleported past him and started running but... two mages from C-E walled the door around half a dozen times.

Since I'm bad and don't carry heal pots or TRs, I died... to a dexxer. I think it was a fair fight and I can see how they're viable because he ****d my face. It only took a complete lack of potions, a surprise attack, two mages walling my exit, and the most ****ed up part of the map to fight a melee character.

Here's Links!

[Alcibiades Knuts]

If you're a top tier dexer with 5x gm and master/grandmaster magery / resist, then I have a question to ask you. How many times have you died to a tank mage when you had pots?

My point is, mages can do well early in their development because their damage now is pretty close to their top end finished character damage. Wait until dexers start gm'ing combat skills, anat, magery, and resist. Don't go asking for sweeping revisions, (which this thread is obviously trying to prove is needed) based on unfinished characters that aren't endgame viable.

[Myspacetom]

If you're a top tier dexer with 5x gm and master/grandmaster magery / resist, then I have a question to ask you. How many times have you died to a tank mage when you had pots?

My point is, mages can do well early in their development because their damage now is pretty close to their top end finished character damage. Wait until dexers start gm'ing combat skills, anat, magery, and resist. Don't go asking for sweeping revisions, (which this thread is obviously trying to prove is needed) based on unfinished characters that aren't endgame viable.

I'm a master+, getting close to grandmaster, in all of my combat skills and 80+ resist. I die to mages all the time, even with potions and pre-casted gheal.

I've never died to another dexxer.

Mage's do well because they can do damage to anyone within 13 tiles. They have paralyze, walls, heavy burst, and don't have to be within 1 tile to deal damage.

Here's a question since you aren't going along with the theme of the thread. Would you rather be chased by two mages or two dexxers?

Every single one of the things dexxers have traditionally used to finish people is broken on this shard.

EVERY.
SINGLE.
ONE.

PURPLE BOTS. NERFED
ARCHERY. BROKEN
MOUNTS. NON EXISTENT
ZAP STICKS. NON EXISTENT

That aside, can we please start listing some of the "nightmares" that you guys have died to. I'd like to see some names!!!! If you guys are dying to players that have to be right next to you to kill you, then LOL............ :)

[Iced Earth]

METHODMANX

[Domnu]

On another pre-UOR server that had a very similar ruleset to IPY2 the guild [+ -] made dexers and utterly destroyed every other group. That was a server that Iced Earth had quit because he was pissed about dexers not being strong enough.

[Myspacetom]

On another pre-UOR server that had a very similar ruleset to IPY2 the guild [+ -] made dexers and utterly destroyed every other group. That was a server that Iced Earth had quit because he was pissed about dexers not being strong enough.

Normally don't double post but since you decided to.

Don't want hearsay or hyperbole about something on a different server, because that server probably had at least one of the two of the following:

WORKING ZAPSTICKS
WORKING ARCHERY
WORKING PURPLE POTS
MOUNTS
STRONGER POISON

IF YOU'VE DIED TO A DEXXER ON THIS SERVER, PLEASE GIVE ME HIS NAME.

[Mazer]

METHODMANX

QFT

[revolutionary]

can i offer you some cheese to your whine?

[Alcibiades Knuts]

So start a thread explaining why you'd like lightning staves, purple pot fix, mounts / a sprint button. But stop dooming them by pushing for overpowered CRAP like stronger poison, no healing through poison, UO:R special moves that made many people quit, etc; and stop willfully ignoring aspects of the game so people have to post a rebuttal to every single point you make eg:

"Mage's do well because they can do damage to anyone within 13 tiles. They have paralyze, walls, heavy burst, and don't have to be within 1 tile to deal damage," when YOU have magery on your dexer, so you can do all that. Christ, half your **** is always a troll piece, this thread is complete troll bait too.

Also, you're not even GM fighting skills. When has a dexer ever been thought of as viable without gm wpn / tact / anat?

[Alfie Garganey]

actually, i would like to see someone follow the theme of the post.

[Myspacetom]

So start a thread explaining why you'd like lightning staves, purple pot fix, mounts / a sprint button. But stop dooming them by pushing for overpowered CRAP like stronger poison, no healing through poison, UO:R special moves that made many people quit, etc; and stop willfully ignoring aspects of the game so people have to post a rebuttal to every single point you make eg:

"Mage's do well because they can do damage to anyone within 13 tiles. They have paralyze, walls, heavy burst, and don't have to be within 1 tile to deal damage," when YOU have magery on your dexer, so you can do all that. Christ, half your **** is always a troll piece, this thread is complete troll bait too.

Also, you're not even GM fighting skills. When has a dexer ever been thought of as viable without gm wpn / tact / anat?

Yeah. The "M-O" of a dexxer is to unequip weapon and Cor Por people. I have 25 mana and 0 meditation. I have to use my mana on heals/reflect.


actually, i would like to see someone follow the theme of the post.

You wont. Mages aren't suppose to die to dexxers.

[Iced Earth]

actually, i would like to see someone follow the theme of the post.


No one can because MyspaceTom called them all out on their "Nightmare dexer" bs.

And Domnu, wtf are you even talking about.

[Myspacetom]

Seneschal, if you're reading this thread I have an offer to make to you. I know you never got a chance to play this game when it was released, so you may not know where we're coming from.

Let's meet up IG. Give your character a 7X GM dexxer build and a Vanquishing Deadly Poisoned Weapon.
...and then try to kill me.

I won't fight back, I'm just going to run around until you get bored. I think after you do this, you'll have more experience as to the difficulties that we're facing at the moment. Thanks.

You have nerfed every single one of our methods for finishing someone off. There has to be a reason for it, or someone you're listening to, because these changes make no sense in the greater theme of things. No archery/zap sticks/grenades? Why!?

[Digital]

Honestly, dexers should get buffed archery at the VERY least. I wouldn't be opposed to gnarled staffs/wands either, if nothing else it would help macing which absolutely blows right now.

My main is a tank mage (he has by far the highest skills of all my characters - I do have a med warrior alt though), and I would be okay with special hits as well if they came with a cooldown timer. I'm not even sure that UO has those kind of mechanics but med warriors specifically would be significantly overpowered if they could chain a bunch of special hits together.

[Elbows]

You guys should make more threads about this. And, just to play along, I was killed by Iced and Scorched Earth in Shame a few weeks ago. Does that count?

[Bakou]

I almost died to MethodManX

I died many times since the launch and mostly against dexxers

Maybe you are just bad as a dexxer? I dont know...

[Myspacetom]

I almost died to MethodManX

I died many times since the launch and mostly against dexxers

Maybe you are just bad as a dexxer? I dont know...

You're a top tier mage? lol?


You guys should make more threads about this. And, just to play along, I was killed by Iced and Scorched Earth in Shame a few weeks ago. Does that count?

Finally, our second serious post. Is Scorched Earth a mage? You were "ganked" inside the dungeon by two players?

[revolutionary]

Seneschal, if you're reading this thread I have an offer to make to you. I know you never got a chance to play this game when it was released, so you may not know where we're coming from.

Let's meet up IG. Give your character a 7X GM dexxer build and a Vanquishing Deadly Poisoned Weapon.
...and then try to kill me.

I won't fight back, I'm just going to run around until you get bored. I think after you do this, you'll have more experience as to the difficulties that we're facing at the moment. Thanks.

You have nerfed every single one of our methods for finishing someone off. There has to be a reason for it, or someone you're listening to, because these changes make no sense in the greater theme of things. No archery/zap sticks/grenades? Why!?

wait what?
let senchal get a 7xgm mage and try to klill you, while you run around with 50 pouches.

[Domnu]

And Domnu, wtf are you even talking about.

Divinity.

This is all getting pretty tiresome, guys. Be careful, or you're going to alienate everyone and no one will listen when you actually do come up with some good ideas.

[Big Biski]

I died to Dreadbane during the O/C town control battles on Saturday. He maced my face off with the quickness, by himself. I didn't die at any other point during the battles. His Qstaff was swift and painful.

Wrestling 94.9 94.4 0.0 100.0

He didn't miss a single swing. Not a one.

There have been enough dexxer buffs and enough mage nerfs, these threads need to stop. Sadly the staff is listening to you guys and its really sad to watch so many awful changes get implemented over the past few weeks.

I've dropped focus from my tank mage and have now been working on my dexxer because they are stupid OP atm.

[Zigo-U-]

Dude, the bottom line is that if you think 50 bandages and a gm katana should give you ground against a fully equip mage you're a **** sneeze.

This isn't directed at anybody specificallyl, but the dexers who these players should be taking pointers from are telling the server that its balanced well.

That means something.

[Elbows]

You're a top tier mage? lol?



Finally, our second serious post. Is Scorched Earth a mage? You were "ganked" inside the dungeon by two players?

You asked if I died to a dexer and I did. Did you only mean a solo dexer? You're aware that no one has GM resist right? There was the post about recast delays, the special hits one, and now this. That's three and that's just in the last two days. Get a grip.

[Mrs.Brown]

stupid ass thread.
stupid ass tom.

and just for the record, a "top tier" mage would never die to a less skilled mage eithe. ooops?
but wtf the mage is so overpowered, its all luckbased, i mea cmon 3 seconds 140dmg who survives that tom??

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

give it some time, the good dexers will be killing people sometime soon... they were a nightmare on Div with vanqs and DP

[Jabu]

Every day a new thread? Seriously FFS stop posting for 2 months until chars are done, then some one might listen to you.

[Myspacetom]

EDIT: sorry for the rant.

Please fix archery or give dexxers a way to "try" and finish runners.

[dignan]

play a mage

[Canan]

Just curious, but why would you play a melee character if you don't like chasing people around? That is what dexxers in UO have always done...surely you have figured that out by now?

Hmmph...

[dignan]

I think I should be able to two shot everyone with my dagger. Please make these changes. If not this shard sucks.

[Myspacetom]

Just curious, but why would you play a melee character if you don't like chasing people around? That is what dexxers in UO have always done...surely you have figured that out by now?

Hmmph...

I've always usually had both a mage and a dexxer and there's something about playing a melee in UO that I enjoy. I don't want a tank mage because I hate playing something that's overplayed, or a faction that's overpopulated.

It's just that during this era dexxers had SO much more going for them, it is unbelievable. They could kill people with archery, explosion pots could be targeted by health bar(heat seeking), we had mounts (which meant a lot - mounts alone meant that you'd get 1 hit every 10-15s on a running opponent), macers could use zap staves, interruption delay meant that you couldn't spam-cast certain spells and get them off in between swings, macers did armor damage.

All of these things have been nerfed/removed.

[Myspacetom]

I think I should be able to two shot everyone with my dagger. Please make these changes. If not this shard sucks.

This is the kind of reply we need. Not one dexxer is arguing for improved damage. Not one.

Our damage is fine. Our chasing ability/utility is not.

[revolutionary]

dude, go back to aos.

on a serious note, just chill until chars are closer to 7x. IF theres something unballanced, az will fix it.

[Alfie Garganey]

Just curious, but why would you play a melee character if you don't like chasing people around? That is what dexxers in UO have always done...surely you have figured that out by now?

Hmmph...

yes

[Myspacetom]

yes


I would chase someone for 15 minutes if I knew there was a chance for me to get a kill...

...but it just doesn't happen here. I'm close to making a pvp video of me running around chasing people across the map just show you what it's like. Other dexxers know exactly what I'm talking about.

[revolutionary]

btw you woudnt kill the same guys, if u were on your mage (given they have pouches or can harm themselfs when they see An Ex Por). thats t2a, you cant kill someone who runs away 1v1 and is half decent ig and og skill-wise.

[dignan]

This is the kind of reply we need. Not one dexxer is arguing for improved damage. Not one.

Our damage is fine. Our chasing ability/utility is not.Just demonstrating that you sounds like a whiny bitch. Tone it down a notch.

[Myspacetom]

btw you woudnt kill the same guys, if u were on your mage (given they have pouches or can harm themselfs when they see An Ex Por). thats t2a, you cant kill someone who runs away 1v1 and is half decent ig and og skill-wise.

It's bad for mages and I've escaped mages.

But please, just for a second, imagine how bad it is for a character that has to be within 1 tile to do damage.

[Canan]

I've always usually had both a mage and a dexxer and there's something about playing a melee in UO that I enjoy. I don't want a tank mage because I hate playing something that's overplayed, or a faction that's overpopulated.

It's just that during this era dexxers had SO much more going for them, it is unbelievable. They could kill people with archery, explosion pots could be targeted by health bar(heat seeking), we had mounts (which meant a lot - mounts alone meant that you'd get 1 hit every 10-15s on a running opponent), macers could use zap staves, interruption delay meant that you couldn't spam-cast certain spells and get them off in between swings, macers did armor damage.

All of these things have been nerfed/removed.

This is the deal - and I am going to tell you this as straight forward and concise as I can. You have to come to grips with the rule sets of this server. Just just like other people had to come to grip with the fact that mages can heal through poison, there are no horses, and harm doesn't interrupt. You can't just come to a server, with a certain code, and try to change that code to match another era. My advice to you is if you don't like playing a dexxer in this particular era, keep to a mage. I (and I daresay that many people would agree) play this server because I HATED how insanely overpowered dexxers were in UO:R. Running around with just an axe+50 bands+100 lumberjacking skill and 3 shotting people, it was just silly to me.

[Myspacetom]

This is the deal - and I am going to tell you this as straight forward and concise as I can. You have to come to grips with the rule sets of this server. Just just like other people had to come to grip with the fact that mages can heal through poison, there are no horses, and harm doesn't interrupt. You can't just come to a server, with a certain code, and try to change that code to match another era. My advice to you is if you don't like playing a dexxer in this particular era, keep to a mage. I (and I daresay that many people could agree) play this server because I HATED how insanely overpowered dexxers were in UO:R. Running around with just an axe+50 bands+100 lumberjacking skill and 3 shotting people, it was just silly to me.


Again, I have absolutely no complaints about our pvp damage.

If they fixed archery... or gave dexxers a reasonable ranged finisher like good purple pots or something... I'd be happy for now.

[revolutionary]

It's bad for mages and I've escaped mages.

But please, just for a second, imagine how bad it is for a character that has to be within 1 tile to do damage.

or a char that doesnt need to stop to deal dmg (yea mages can swing weapons too but you see where im going here)
or a char that doesnt need to stop to heal..
so maybe dexxers have a harder time killing and and easyer time getting away?
however, thats how t2a works, this just isnt aos or ML or whatnot.

[Canan]

Purple pots are horrible and I pray to God that Az doesn't ever adhere to that request.

Also, what do you mean "fix" archery? Do you mean make it insta hit? Insta hit archery is good for no one and would only make your life as a dexxer worse. Two mages would just have to cast FS, equip bow, and your dead. Yay...

Also, have you ever been killed by 4 archers unstealthing from 10 tiles away just to instantly kill you? Bad. It also makes every other melee skill pretty much obsolete in Group v. Group combat.

[revolutionary]

yep

[Myspacetom]

Purple pots are horrible and I pray to God that Az doesn't ever adhere to that request.

Also, what do you mean "fix" archery? Do you mean make it insta hit? Insta hit archery is good for no one and would only make your life as a dexxer worse. Two mages would just have to cast FS, equip bow, and your dead. Yay...

Also, have you ever been killed by 4 archers unstealthing from 10 tiles away just to instantly kill you? Bad. It also makes every other melee skill pretty much obsolete in Group v. Group combat.

The current plan is to only make archery insta-hit if you have high dex.


Traditionally, a mount was all you needed to chase/kill someone. Mounts were HUGE when it came to chasing as a dexxer because you can land a hit everytime the person you were chasing got stopped for even a second.

Without them it's like oh my god please stop running so i can get within 1 tile. Then when you get within 1 tile they just randomly change direction and you're 4 tiles away again.

[of no importance]

I haven’t got a toon worked up enough to do too much pvp yet, but when you refer to them running away from you, are you to mean off-screen or just in circles around you? Because if they are off screening, isn’t' that like a win anyhow?

Also how does 25 int work out for you (actually curious i haven’t played this rule set since it was live on OSI in 97-98)? I would assume utility magery on a toon would hardly be useful with such stats. I guess ill have to actually go out and try some pvp with my 70-80's in the easy skills and 60 - 70's in the harder skills to see how things go.

All of your claims may be valid, not saying they are not as i have not experienced them first hand. I do believe it could be a little premature to get massive changes made at this point in the game though.

[Magincia]

Heat sinking pots were stupid in any era, no offense.

[Myspacetom]

I haven’t got a toon worked up enough to do too much pvp yet, but when you refer to them running away from you, are you to mean off-screen or just in circles around you? Because if they are off screening, isn’t' that like a win anyhow?

Also how does 25 int work out for you (actually curious i haven’t played this rule set since it was live on OSI in 97-98)? I would assume utility magery on a toon would hardly be useful with such stats. I guess ill have to actually go out and try some pvp with my 70-80's in the easy skills and 60 - 70's in the harder skills to see how things go.

All of your claims may be valid, not saying they are not as i have not experienced them first hand. I do believe it could be a little premature to get massive changes made at this point in the game though.

I just want instant hit archery for dexxers so we have (one) ranged attack on someone who takes off.

When mages chase me, they usually get an energy bolt off on me about every 15-30 seconds.
That's about what an archer would do.

Archery is also the dexxers group skill-set so we aren't completely useless in 5v5s.

[Alcibiades Knuts]

Also, what do you mean "fix" archery? Do you mean make it insta hit? Insta hit archery is good for no one and would only make your life as a dexxer worse. Two mages would just have to cast FS, equip bow, and your dead. Yay...
Also, have you ever been killed by 4 archers unstealthing from 10 tiles away just to instantly kill you? Bad. It also makes every other melee skill pretty much obsolete in Group v. Group combat.
------>You have to come to grips with the rule set of this server.<--------
People, esp MST, love making suggestions without thinking how it will effect the rest of the game. He just focuses on one tiny little snapshot of gameplay, "IF I JUST HAD INSTA HIT ARCHERY IN 1 V 1 EVERYTHING WOULD BE BALANCED!" While ignoring how the changes will alter the viability of other strategies, tactics, situations, potential grief, exploits, etc.

[Judgement]

I haven’t got a toon worked up enough to do too much pvp yet, but when you refer to them running away from you, are you to mean off-screen or just in circles around you? Because if they are off screening, isn’t' that like a win anyhow?


Not if you want to kill them.

[Jack]

People, esp MST, love making suggestions without thinking how it will effect the rest of the game. He just focuses on one tiny little snapshot of gameplay, "IF I JUST HAD INSTA HIT ARCHERY IN 1 V 1 EVERYTHING WOULD BE BALANCED!" While ignoring how the changes will alter the viability of other strategies, tactics, situations, potential grief, exploits, etc.

Like what?

[revolutionary]

like lame sync drops /w archery?

[Akim]

On another pre-UOR server that had a very similar ruleset to IPY2 the guild [+ -] made dexers and utterly destroyed every other group. That was a server that Iced Earth had quit because he was pissed about dexers not being strong enough.

Gotta be careful with these kinds of arguments, they essentially mean nothing. foreword: I have literally zero PvP experience in UO, and no characters much higher than 60 in anything. So I have no horse in this race.

But, coming from a MUD with some of the most complex combat systems I've ever seen, trumping any graphic based game by a landslide at least, there were guys who could roll the weakest classes and kill everyone and make it look easy. But you can't base arguments, and future nerfs, off of that. Just because someone with a crazy healing system, time, and experience with what it takes to win can figure out some creative **** to kill people, doesn't mean it should be nerfed necessarily.

[Bill the Smelly]

lol if u r a mage and killed by a dexxer, no offence but that means u r newbie or noob.

[okaygo]

From a design/balance standpoint people need to understand that items such as potions, and magical gear are additional luxury items that shouldn't be counted towards template balance. A mage can stock up in the best AR gear too, carry a lot of potions, and also use a vanqed hally. These arguments do not hold in terms of template balance. Neither do mechanics such as chasing or LOSing. With that said, the DPS of a pure warriors weapon is higher than a mages if the dexer gets the chance to hit. In conclusion, the only thing that should be changed is Archery, balancing it in favor of high-dex characters. (dex based insta-hit delay) This will allow dexers to compete on the field and offer variety in the templates. This game doesn't have extremely complicated pvp mechanics, its a twitch based timing game when it comes down to the duel.

TL:DR; Balance archery towards high-dex templates, remove QQ from dexxers.

[Sultani]

If you consider yourself a good dexer but you die to tank mages when you're completely decked out, you are doing something wrong. End of story.

If the person runs away from you, you won the damn fight.

[Frumpylumps]

If you want to compete in 1v1 pvp you do what the vast majority of players do and you make a hally mage. Ipy was designed for it in every possible way. Anything other than a hally mage and you are gimping yourself in 1v1. Why take on the more challenging playstyles when you can insta hit with a hally and run and cast? If you want to kill good hally mages without being a hally mage yourself you need to have stealth and wait till your mark gets low on HP. There is a reason so many people do what everyone else does and rolls a hally mage, it is the easiest to kill people with.

You can beat mages as a dexxer if the mage is bad and makes mistakes or if you get lucky enough to get that last hit with archery, but that is about it. Anyone can kill anyone with a hally mage and that RNG is what allows these nerds and baddy scrubs to feel good about themselves. Why change it?

personally I like the challenge of trying to kill people with something other than a hally mage but most people just want to do what is easiest because they just care about winning and are afraid to challenge themselves by playing a more difficult playstyle. same reason most NA players play protoss in starcraft2.

[Sultani]

I seriously think people sit down, think of everything that they know is right, and then just post completely the opposite of that in order to get responses.

[Axel]

Why are you all crying so hard?

Dexxers are completly viable.

Always carry :
200~ bandages
20~ pouches
10-15~ each pot
magic / poisoned weapons
magic armour
regs
recall scroll and rune
magic reflect scrolls?


(hally = any heavy hitting weapon in wep class)

30 magery precast debuffs or harm / arrow, equip halberd, disrupt heals

poison spell for runners, cure spell for heals if necessary (cure pots)

if your out of close range equip hally for chases

use explosion pots as martydom for heavy damage up close, or for disrupts, or invised people

use hiding or corners to block dumps / syncs (wait till they cast reveal or ms or something before you move, use bandages before you hide, run out with hally)

use teleport or wall in fights, especially against several enemies

precast heals

use bandage timer in razor to know when you have to hit your cure pot

addition :
if your against a small amount of people and you get paralyzed and you still have pouches, you can pretend to be paralyzed and depending on what happens you can either :

if they are low and try meditate or cast something dumb you can pop a pouch and start fighting them again

or if they try sync, you can pop your pouch after the explosions are targetted to waste their mana while you run off screen and chug and bandage

if you run out of pouches precast small spells or debuffs if their spamming paralyze

dp on a dexxer is lethal

Dexxers cant die if they continue to run and use pots and bandages, guarenteed.

[Kyndrith aka Skeeet]

dexers have no resist or dp weapons right now why are people even discussing if they are viable or not?

[Reefer]

I would chase someone for 15 minutes if I knew there was a chance for me to get a kill...

...but it just doesn't happen here. I'm close to making a pvp video of me running around chasing people across the map just show you what it's like. Other dexxers know exactly what I'm talking about.

This would be nice to see.
Perhaps a video including one/some successful kills verses a bad player, and a long chase vs a mediocre player.

Regarding ranged finishing, is it not possible to use a purple potion and time it well so that it explodes just as it lands?
Though I suppose the easy counter is for the runner to time a direction change with the potion timer.

[Izure]

A simple fix would be to put POTS on cooldowns amirite?

Cure and Refreshs should be on a at least 30 sec cooldown but 1 minute is more realistics, same with gheal pots.

[Shanaar]

A simple fix for what?
You do realize that if there is a CD that high on Cure pot your screwing the dexxer over more than the mage...

[futility]

Gotta be careful with these kinds of arguments, they essentially mean nothing. foreword: I have literally zero PvP experience in UO, and no characters much higher than 60 in anything. So I have no horse in this race.

But, coming from a MUD with some of the most complex combat systems I've ever seen, trumping any graphic based game by a landslide at least, there were guys who could roll the weakest classes and kill everyone and make it look easy. But you can't base arguments, and future nerfs, off of that. Just because someone with a crazy healing system, time, and experience with what it takes to win can figure out some creative **** to kill people, doesn't mean it should be nerfed necessarily.

That is exactly who the game should be balanced around. You'd prefer it if things were balanced around the lowest common denominator with no concern for what the actual potential of a template is? It would be absolute chaos and anyone with a minimum degree of competency (admittedly still a very small % of the population) would play the most imbalanced template and be absolutely unstoppable against anyone playing anything else.

Instead right now we see the opposite situation, following the pattern of pretty much any other game out there. Mages do better in low skill/low gear level/low player ability situations so at the early stages of a new server they reign supreme. This doesn't neccessarily mean the template is imbalanced, it just means given the current conditions of the server it is the strongest choice. Given time to develop dexxers will catch up but because their damage relies on higher skills and better gear, and their playstyle requires a higher player ability, it will take some time before mage dominance ends.

For a clearer example look at Starcraft. At D level play Protoss is by FAR the strongest race. A D+ or possibly even C- Protoss couldn't dream of getting past D- as Terran. This however in absolutely NO WAY means that Protoss is overpowered; it just means that race caters better to low level play.

[Darkfall Online]

Instead right now we see the opposite situation, following the pattern of pretty much any other game out there. Mages do better in low skill/low gear level/low player ability situations

A "warrior" uses much less micro and relies heavily on equipment. There is very little "skill" to the playstyle and it mostly relies on "luck". You hope for a hit which is based wep skill vs wep skill. Mages have much more micro but UO combat is largely based on "luck", you can set up the perfect combo but without the hally ( luck ) hit finish it can be a waste of mana.

I do not understand why people are still theorycrafting UO ( t2a era style ) combat mechanics. There has been no new spells/skills implemented only minor modifications of timers and resist interupt chance varying from server to server. Is it really that hard to understand that mages provide high burst dps as compared to everlasting med dps by warriors.

If you want actual skillful PvP then go play Darkfall Online or something equivelant ( does such a game exist? ). You have to aim everything. Just do not expect to find the same quality of immersive sand that UO provides.

UO is for fun, I don't know why people take it so seriously.

[futility]

A "warrior" uses much less micro and relies heavily on equipment. There is very little "skill" to the playstyle and it mostly relies on "luck". You hope for a hit which is based wep skill vs wep skill. Mages have much more micro but UO combat is largely based on "luck", you can set up the perfect combo but without the hally ( luck ) hit finish it can be a waste of mana.

I do not understand why people are still theorycrafting UO ( t2a era style ) combat mechanics. There has been no new spells/skills implemented only minor modifications of timers and resist interupt chance varying from server to server. Is it really that hard to understand that mages provide high burst dps as compared to everlasting med dps by warriors.

If you want actual skillful PvP then go play Darkfall Online or something equivelant ( does such a game exist? ). You have to aim everything. Just do not expect to find the same quality of immersive sand that UO provides.

UO is for fun, I don't know why people take it so seriously.

And MethodManX is the luckiest man on the shard?

[Judgement]

It does not seem balanced when every template requires magery in order to compete with mages.

A tweak could be allow resisting spells to reduce the damage from direct damage spells. I.e. at 100 resist vs someone with 100 magery the damage might be reduced by 50%.

It seems a bit off that someone can wear armor to reduce melee damage but there is no way to reduce magic damage.

[Darkfall Online]

It does not seem balanced when every template requires magery in order to compete with mages.

A tweak could be allow resisting spells to reduce the damage from direct damage spells. I.e. at 100 resist vs someone with 100 magery the damage might be reduced by 50%.

It seems a bit off that someone can wear armor to reduce melee damage but there is no way to reduce magic damage.

Magery cost vs Melee cost. Tank mage is the most versatile and well rounded template thus why the favourite, other templates can defeat the tank mage but only in certain circumstances that suit their skills selected.



And MethodManX is the luckiest man on the shard?

I dont even.. If you think UO pvp is skillful then sadly you are mistaken. There are certain aspects that require timing and micro with some templates, group combat is of course always about teamwork and combat awareness. Watching heal timers and spamming potions while running away rendering yourself invincible is not skill.

[Mrs.Brown]

Yes darkfall, your right on one thing, you need luck in uo.
But also its very skillbased... see if i duel you ten times, and I win 10/10. Would you call me the better player or just luckier?
Then if we play 100 more and i win 80/20, would u still not believe im more skillfull then u? ;P

The best person will win most of the times, if not all... thats skills for me..

[Lady Red]

Yes darkfall, your right on one thing, you need luck in uo.
But also its very skillbased... see if i duel you ten times, and I win 10/10. Would you call me the better player or just luckier?
Then if we play 100 more and i win 80/20, would u still not believe im more skillfull then u? ;P

The best person will win most of the times, if not all... thats skills for me..

it's ping > luck (hit chance and then hit dmg) > player skill

[Darkfall Online]

Yes darkfall, your right on one thing, you need luck in uo.
But also its very skillbased... see if i duel you ten times, and I win 10/10. Would you call me the better player or just luckier?
Then if we play 100 more and i win 80/20, would u still not believe im more skillfull then u? ;P

The best person will win most of the times, if not all... thats skills for me..

Relying on a chance roll at any time is not skill. Like I said there is a degree of skill negotiating binds , combat awareness and timings but it is still an MMO where character skill makes a difference and so does ping ( like every game but UO is very ping dependant ). The required "skill" of a player to excel in UO does not compare to traditional FPS , RTS or even MMOFPS which do have character skills.

[Sultani]

Well equipped dexers are better than mages. Playing a mage is NOT a stronger choice. It's just that most people who play dexers suck at UO and they have no concept of how mages work. If they do, then they know how to fight against one and they absolutely ****ing stomp them.

Wanting a playstyle (that's already ridiculously stronger in certain situations) based on double clicking someone and following them to be "balanced" (by the ridiculous suggestion of buffing it even more) with a playstyle that requires 70 hotkeys is the most assanine **** ever.

Putting a cooldown in refresh pots just means that every single player in the damn game would be a macer. No thanks.

Complaining that templates for pvp require magery to be competitive is no different than complaining that every template for pvp requires resist or a melee skill. UO is a simple game and has pretty simple mechanics.

Dexers have three ways to heal themselves because if they don't suck they'll have magery. The argument that needing magery to compete in pvp is "imbalanced" is a ridiculous failure. You shouldn't be able to run around with bandages, a couple pots, and a weapon and be "balanced" with a tank mage. If you think you should be able to do that you're playing the wrong game.

[Budikah]

I love reading these threads. Its just one person defending their broken ass mechanics against another persons broken ass mechanics.

It'd be amazing if anyone actually had suggestions or a response to the OP rather than 8 ****ing pages of trolling bull****.

Seriously. Read this forum and you'll know why Governments can't get anything done. People are ****ing ****suckers.


Putting a cooldown in refresh pots just means that every single player in the damn game would be a macer. No thanks. - Why would they all be Macers? Because people hate chasing people across the entire ****ing world map every fight? Really? Wow. Maybe if there was some way to stop people other than Paraspam (useless if they are equipped) and Wall Spells (lol) and dropping Footstools.

So instead of everyone being a Macer you are just cool with Macing being gimp as ****? Cool. Now I see how your thought process goes. Oh god! This is scary! Let's just leave it as a heaping pile of **** because every time somebody tries to offer suggestions to fix it - I freak out like a child and spew words everywhere and nothing gets done!


Dexers have three ways to heal themselves because if they don't suck they'll have magery. The argument that needing magery to compete in pvp is "imbalanced" is a ridiculous failure. You shouldn't be able to run around with bandages, a couple pots, and a weapon and be "balanced" with a tank mage. If you think you should be able to do that you're playing the wrong game.

People have gotten over the "You need Magery to play" clause thusfar. And why should you be able to run around with that same gear, minus bandages, and do any better? Isn't that what a Tank does? Why don't Tank Mages carry around Bandages to heal themselves too? I'm pretty sure there isn't any detriment to applying a bandage - even if it'll only heal a few HP. Hell, a Dexxer probably won't be able to use his Magery to heal much more than you could spamming Bandages with 0/0 in Healing Anat and forever running away.


This game just needs a way to keep people from fleeing. We have no "slow" or "daze". All we have is a ****ty Stamina system that doesn't work for stopping fleeing (people are afraid of it working it seems) and Paralyze/Razor drop-item macros.


And to people complaining about special hits ruining the game - are you telling me that you can't think up any Special Hits that don't ruin the game?

Playing a Mage may not be "easier" than playing a Dexxer - but if you've got any sort of mental capacity then you always have the clear advantage with a larger mana pool to abuse the fact that Magery is the core of UO PvP and the only way to increase your movement speed/change positioning.

[Sultani]

Budikah... At least try to understand this. For the 4th time. I HAVE offered suggestions. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean I haven't. That's not even remotely close to the same thing as defending broken mechanics. My comment about everyone being a macer has nothing to do with different ways to chase people down. There would be no reason not to play a character that can just gimp your opponent to the point where they can't even move.

Now, aside from the trivial banter that's pretty much meaningless, let's consider the way things actually are and see if we can't find some reasonable resolution.

First, 1v1 combat. In this case, dexers need to gear the **** out of themselves in order to win. If they do, they can completely destroy a mage. The argument here on the behalf of the dexer is that this is dumb because it makes pvp all about gear and that you shouldn't have to be way over geared in order to compete. Well, that's pretty much like a mage saying "I shouldn't have to bring regs to a fight because that just means that my pvp template relies on gear." However, I do understand that the amount of gold required to be a "well equipped" dexer is usually more than the cost to gear up a tank mage. Both use regs and pots and pouches, but the dexer needs bandages and more expensive armor. Even if the dexer and mage both gear the hell out of themselves, the dexer still wins because mages damage output is dependent on mana. This is far too important not to consider, because a mage cannot burst down a well equipped dexer unless the dexer just happens to miss 100% of their swings and they're too stupid to run and chug.. The reason why I feel like this is fine is due to the amount of additional skill training required to play a tank mage in order to deal damage..

Lets compare the templates. Mage - magery, resist, eval, meditation, wrestling, melee skill, tactics. In this template, there are 3 skills that are unique to the template in terms of dealing damage, which is entirely dependent on a discrete pool of mana.
Dexer - melee skill, tactics, anatomy, healing, resist, magery, (insert 7th here depending on preferred style, but any choice does not supply a skill that is unique to the template in a way that directly converts to damage throughput unless the 7th is archery, which is currently kinda broken).

Dexers have ONE unique skill that increases their damage throughput.. Mages have THREE. Why is it imbalanced that needing more unique skills to fill up your 700 cap translates into better burst damage? The mage shouldn't need to gear themselves up as much as a dexer should because of this. They had to spend 300 skill points to deal damage that a dexer didn't.

Bottom line is simply this. A mage has more damage dealing skills in their template. Why should dexers be able to burst as much damage as a mage can?


Since most of the game revolves around group fights. Lets look at the obvious disparity here.

Group fights are dominated by synch dumping. This is not exclusive to mages vs dexers. In a group fight there's only really a couple things that matter in regards to which template you are. Regardless of if you're a mage or a dexer, either template requires you to be cross healed by your friends or to offscreen in order to survive. No further evidence is needed to show that this is true other than the fact that mages die to synch dumps just like dexers do if they don't catch heals.

that's pretty obvious. right? The reason why dexers are gimped in group fights then is simple. Because archery isn't insta hit, they need to be way too close to the people that are casting on them and cannot offscreen nearly as easily as a mage can, making them easier to synch. So, if archery had an insta hit that was based on base dexterity, dexers could use it as their 7th skill and be able to synch bow shots at range. No? I think this is a perfectly valid suggestion, since just making archery insta hit would mean that tank mages would just be synching more damage on the field. I feel it's necessary to point this out since you didn't get it the first three times. ***This is a suggestion for balance and not a defense of my "broken mechanics"***

The other problem is regarding cross healing. In the extremely hypothetical event that there's an entire guild that plays dexers, they would still lose because they can't heal each other. There have been two things suggested to fix that, (exclusive to dexers so that mages can't do it as well), each providing a way for dexers to do this. But instead of recognizing this, everyone instead just pretends that we're all defending our own stances.

I completely expect you to A, not read this.. or B, whine that I'm just spewing words without offering reasonable input.

[Frumpylumps]

A simple fix would be to put POTS on cooldowns amirite?

Cure and Refreshs should be on a at least 30 sec cooldown but 1 minute is more realistics, same with gheal pots.

I like this idea, this would make macing and fencing more viable without having the RNG wins of special moves. the reason macing and fencing aren't as good as swords is because you can just spam cure and refresh pots. hally mage shouldn't be the best/only viable option for 1v1. Anyone can kill anyone with a hally mage, all it takes is a few lucky rolls.

[Domnu]

There are a lot of ideas for improving the gameplay of the non-mage, but they're not centralized anywhere. I'm going to make a thread for people to just outline very specific additions to the current combat mechanics. No discussion of balance or current mechanics, just possible additions that we have all come up with.

I'm going to post it in the Wind forum to hopefully avoid trolling to some extent.

[Judgement]

Sorry, I really don't mean for it to be a whine I just hate to see that all success in pvp is connected to magery. I'd much rather see a pure warrior and a pure mage who both have put equal money and time into their gear and skills be a pretty even fight. That, in my opinion, is a balanced system for pvp.

Perhaps instead Magery should be reduced and gear should be put in to accomodate so that dexxers are not moreso based on items than any other template.

[Domnu]

If you have a combat mechanics proposal to make, please do so in this thread:

http://inporylem.com/forum/showthread.php?6662-Proposed-New-Combat-Mechanics

Do NOT use that thread as a place to discuss the specific proposals made there. Make another thread if you would like to discuss a specific proposal.

[Sultani]

If you have a combat mechanics proposal to make, please do so in this thread:

http://inporylem.com/forum/showthread.php?6662-Proposed-New-Combat-Mechanics

Do NOT use that thread as a place to discuss the specific proposals made there. Make another thread if you would like to discuss a specific proposal.

my suggestions don't make sense without the explanations and included discussions. :(

[Frumpylumps]

here we go, problems solved: http://inporylem.com/forum/showthread.php?6669-timers-on-potion-consumption-based-on-dexterity

"Makes macing and fencing more viable because people can't just chug refresh or cure pots back to back.

Makes dexxers and other hybrids besides the all too common insta-hit hally mage more viable in pvp, increasing the diversity pvp and 1v1 viability amongst different builds.

I'm thinking cure pots with 100 dex would be 2 seconds and cure pots with 25 dex be 10 seconds or something like that.

for refresh pots 2 sec for 100 dex and 15 sec for 25 dex or something around there."

[Trystan]

No offense but I hope zero of these idea's are taking into any consideration until things settle down and when the pvp really kicks off and people aren't still building templates. Wait until power/vanqs are abundant and people can roll fully equipped 7x... NO knee jerk reactions to an up-rise in forum complaints.

[Stylish]

The dexers will get an enourmus buff as soon as someone can apply deadly poison to weapons.
Use poisoning/magery on your dexer and you will be able to instantly make new charges on your weapon.

All discussions about dexer vs mage should be on hold until you have DP=)

Get a hit in, hopefully poison, he will probably run. You can cast stonewall/paralyze or whatever. Don't forget to use str/agil pots aswell.

The only thing I feel is that playing a dexer is too luckbased for my taste, atleast when it comes to killing your opponent. You can be a very good dexer but if you miss 6 times in a row he's not really going to die...

Whats important: We have to wait for deadly poison.
And most people probably play Tank-mage because its actually more fun to play because you have more options. (most think so anyway)

[Domnu]

my suggestions don't make sense without the explanations and included discussions. :(

Post your suggestion in that thread, then make a new thread to discuss your suggestion. It's a way to have a discussion without going off track.

[Domnu]

No offense but I hope zero of these idea's are taking into any consideration until things settle down and when the pvp really kicks off and people aren't still building templates. Wait until power/vanqs are abundant and people can roll fully equipped 7x... NO knee jerk reactions to an up-rise in forum complaints.


I fully agree. However, I think it's worthwhile to have a discussion in the open now, so everyone can air their thoughts, instead of scrambling to come up with something on the fly down the road.

DP, especially with the changes to poison (which are bizarre, and I'm still not fully familiar with what exactly was changed), is going to be a complete game changer. The only thing that probably needs to be addressed at this point is the delay on archery being dependent on a player's dexterity.

[falconrage]

i am japan
u gaiz no u can run wit mowse rite?
i-r-gun-cut-u-now

yo tom... why they gotta hate on the kid?
On a serious note... all internet jargon aside and derogatory banter on pause,
I'm sure we have all came from another Britannia with a variety diverse templates and PvP items associated with efficient combat, Personally I'm baised to the Alchy/Stun Mage equipped with Lightning/mana-drain/G-Heal and Mini heal wands.
I would really like an implementation or at least a minor tweak for the spell disruptions on circles 1-3 , to interrupt circles 4-6 (nobody PvPs with circles 7-8 minus an exception of flamestrike)
ergo...----> spells such as magic arrow, harm and debuffs need to be able to disrupt higher level spells such as e-bolt, g-heal, ect in PvP with the duly noted fact given they are fast casted.

This server is filled up with absolute morons.. much like today's populous of America.
If any of you are fortunate enough to have the mental capacity to refrain from
*UNPAUSED INTERNET JARGON* --> Douche-Baggery , I do commend you.

[Link]

all internet jargon aside and derogatory banter on pause,
I'm sure we have all came from another Britannia with a variety diverse templates and PvP items associated with efficient combat, Personally I'm baised to the Alchy/Stun Mage equipped with Lightning/mana-drain/G-Heal and Mini heal wands.
I would really like an implementation or at least a minor tweak for the spell disruptions on circles 1-3 , to interrupt circles 4-6 (nobody PvPs with circles 7-8 minus an exception of flamestrike)
ergo...----> spells such as magic arrow, harm and debuffs need to be able to disrupt higher level spells such as e-bolt, g-heal, ect in PvP with the duly noted fact given they are fast casted.It would be a new variety to open up to players that not many have seen or done before.


This server is filled up with absolute morons.. much like today's populous of America.
If any of you are fortunate enough to have the mental capacity to refrain from
*UNPAUSED INTERNET JARGON* --> Douche-Baggery , I do commend you.
True.

[Dreadbane]

I died to Dreadbane during the O/C town control battles on Saturday. He maced my face off with the quickness, by himself. I didn't die at any other point during the battles. His Qstaff was swift and painful.

Wrestling 94.9 94.4 0.0 100.0

He didn't miss a single swing. Not a one.

There have been enough dexxer buffs and enough mage nerfs, these threads need to stop. Sadly the staff is listening to you guys and its really sad to watch so many awful changes get implemented over the past few weeks.

I've dropped focus from my tank mage and have now been working on my dexxer because they are stupid OP atm.

:D yay I got mentioned. Were you the mage I qstaffed alone while 4 of your buddies stood there and didn't gheal you xD? That was some of the luckiest swings I've had, you should have heard me in vent lol, I was fresh from the bank with nothing but bandages and a qstaff, there were 4 of your mage buddies around you (if this is the situation I'm thinking of). You coulda para'd, poisoned, or just had one of your many allies heal you, but for some reason they all ignored me, probably cause they thought, "pssh, whatever, it's just a dexer".

I don't know what you mean by dexxer buffs and mage nerfs, and staff listening to "us guys", cause there haven't been any changes to melee mechanics, we keep asking for fixed archery, where our charged items are, the disadvantages of not having mounts for melee, etc. However, mages for some reason don't have an interrupt delay, run around in leather armor, and gaining resist on this server is possibly one of the most painful experiences ever.

If you WERE the mage I qstaffed on trinsics streets, that was just a painfully hilarious fight, I really didn't expect to kill you, people just ignored me while I swung on you and you walked around with no stam cause you probably didn't have pots xD.

[MORTIMER DCLXVI]

wait 'till the dexers have vanq weps.
Then the mages are screwed

[h0ly r0ll3r]

It's just that during this era dexxers had SO much more going for them, it is unbelievable. They could kill people with archery, explosion pots could be targeted by health bar(heat seeking), we had mounts (which meant a lot - mounts alone meant that you'd get 1 hit every 10-15s on a running opponent), macers could use zap staves, interruption delay meant that you couldn't spam-cast certain spells and get them off in between swings, macers did armor damage.

All of these things have been nerfed/removed.

This quote isn't entirely historically accurate. Firstly, you did not have heat seeking purple pots. During t2a purple pots targeted the ground not the player. They were virtually useless in PvP during this era and didn't become viable until UO:R when OSi decided that crafting skills should be part of PvP (alchemy, lj etc). In fact, as it were, Dexxers had nothing going for them in t2a. For one, while bandages healed faster back then they could be fully interrupted unlike the way they work on RunUO servers which is the modern adaption of bandages. The way bandages function today was a very very very late addition to t2a, it came in shortly before they disabled precast. Not only was dexxer healing output completely gimp, reactive armor was extremely strong. A decent tank mage that kept RA up had no chance of dying to a dexxer. For 90% of t2a dexxers were completely useless and by in large it was newbies that played them. It wasn't until the patches leading up to UOR started going live at the very end of t2a that dexxers became truly viable. There were certainly a few stand out dexxers, but by in large dexxers were largely ineffective in PvP. By all accounts they were massive liabilities in group pvp, they couldn't really heal team mates effectively and they couldn't withstand having multiple mages dump on them at once. Ultimately, the only dexxers that were truly capable in t2a were the ones that risked 30-50k worth of items. A str item in every possible slot, magic reflect items, teleport items, invis items, vanqs and so on. Dexxers on RunUO servers pound for pound are more buff than they ever were in t2a. If a dexxer on a RunUO server could have the same magic items as the good dexxers from t2a they'd be god mode and it would be ridiculous.

Basically what I'm saying is stop complaining and get good.

[Kyndrith aka Skeeet]

fuk u holy roller! im gonna dbl click ur name and delete u from the forums just like in game bitch.

[Darkfall Online]

And MethodManX is the luckiest man on the shard?

How to kill a dexer as a mage. (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/methodmanx.png/)

[MethodManX]

How to kill a dexer as a mage. (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/methodmanx.png/)

wow **** you, I'm drunk and was client bugged and you brag about sicking 2 daemons and some buddies on me and I was client bugged. SUPER COOL

[Joey Zazza]

Dexxers were never good pre-UO:R. We came here to play on a pre-UO:R shard, if you want to play a dexxer go to Hybrid.

[JamieIRL]

Dexxers were never good pre-UO:R. We came here to play on a pre-UO:R shard, if you want to play a dexxer go to Hybrid.

Dexers were pretty good preUOR from what I remember. Have fun versus a qstaff wielding heal precasting dexer :)

[Darkfall Online]

wow **** you, I'm drunk and was client bugged and you brag about sicking 2 daemons and some buddies on me and I was client bugged. SUPER COOL

There was only me. Im not bragging just pointing out the advantage a mage has over a dexer.

[Asan Drakus]

LoL if you want pots and zapsticks to = skill... go back to Hybrid.

[Tragedyx]

I dont know what your talking about, but dying to mages on a dexxer your probably not playing it right. Trying running the **** away until they are out of mana, and then chase and dp spam. You forget mages have to cast, how do you die with pots and bandages when as soon as you see a big explo ebolt comming your way you dont run and heal up?

[eric_azria]

Dexxers were never good pre-UO:R. We came here to play on a pre-UO:R shard, if you want to play a dexxer go to Hybrid.

You obviously didn't have any good dexxers on the server you played, or you weren't good on a dexxer yourself.


I dont know what your talking about, but dying to mages on a dexxer your probably not playing it right. Trying running the **** away until they are out of mana, and then chase and dp spam. You forget mages have to cast, how do you die with pots and bandages when as soon as you see a big explo ebolt comming your way you dont run and heal up?

This response brought to you by Sublime. On a more serious note, CanI****onYofeet has beaten me every time I've fought him on his mage. Maybe you're not playing your mage right.

[Stylish]

This needs to stop. A dexxer with deadly poison and well equipped will own ANY mage.
You don't even need a power/vanq wep but if you do it's even easier.

Use dex skills + poisoning/magery.

A dexxer MUST however be "bad mannered" and run away and play smart sometimes. He cannot just act like he will win the fight if he stays and fight everytime. As soon as you are potentially in danger of dieing you start running/potting/healing until bandages hit and then turn back.

120dex 120str 25int is what you want your stats to be at all times. Keep chugging those agil/str/refresh pots.

[Judgement]

Why doesn't a mage have to run away and play smart to win? I see all this "you need to be geared out" "you gotta be lucky" "you gotta play smart" "you gotta be really good". And when it comes to a mage "you can faceroll" :P

That doesn't sound very balanced to me

[Darkfall Online]

Why doesn't a mage have to run away and play smart to win? I see all this "you need to be geared out" "you gotta be lucky" "you gotta play smart" "you gotta be really good". And when it comes to a mage "you can faceroll" :P

That doesn't sound very balanced to me


Budikah... At least try to understand this. For the 4th time. I HAVE offered suggestions. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean I haven't. That's not even remotely close to the same thing as defending broken mechanics. My comment about everyone being a macer has nothing to do with different ways to chase people down. There would be no reason not to play a character that can just gimp your opponent to the point where they can't even move.

Now, aside from the trivial banter that's pretty much meaningless, let's consider the way things actually are and see if we can't find some reasonable resolution.

First, 1v1 combat. In this case, dexers need to gear the **** out of themselves in order to win. If they do, they can completely destroy a mage. The argument here on the behalf of the dexer is that this is dumb because it makes pvp all about gear and that you shouldn't have to be way over geared in order to compete. Well, that's pretty much like a mage saying "I shouldn't have to bring regs to a fight because that just means that my pvp template relies on gear." However, I do understand that the amount of gold required to be a "well equipped" dexer is usually more than the cost to gear up a tank mage. Both use regs and pots and pouches, but the dexer needs bandages and more expensive armor. Even if the dexer and mage both gear the hell out of themselves, the dexer still wins because mages damage output is dependent on mana. This is far too important not to consider, because a mage cannot burst down a well equipped dexer unless the dexer just happens to miss 100% of their swings and they're too stupid to run and chug.. The reason why I feel like this is fine is due to the amount of additional skill training required to play a tank mage in order to deal damage..

Lets compare the templates. Mage - magery, resist, eval, meditation, wrestling, melee skill, tactics. In this template, there are 3 skills that are unique to the template in terms of dealing damage, which is entirely dependent on a discrete pool of mana.
Dexer - melee skill, tactics, anatomy, healing, resist, magery, (insert 7th here depending on preferred style, but any choice does not supply a skill that is unique to the template in a way that directly converts to damage throughput unless the 7th is archery, which is currently kinda broken).

Dexers have ONE unique skill that increases their damage throughput.. Mages have THREE. Why is it imbalanced that needing more unique skills to fill up your 700 cap translates into better burst damage? The mage shouldn't need to gear themselves up as much as a dexer should because of this. They had to spend 300 skill points to deal damage that a dexer didn't.

Bottom line is simply this. A mage has more damage dealing skills in their template. Why should dexers be able to burst as much damage as a mage can?


Since most of the game revolves around group fights. Lets look at the obvious disparity here.

Group fights are dominated by synch dumping. This is not exclusive to mages vs dexers. In a group fight there's only really a couple things that matter in regards to which template you are. Regardless of if you're a mage or a dexer, either template requires you to be cross healed by your friends or to offscreen in order to survive. No further evidence is needed to show that this is true other than the fact that mages die to synch dumps just like dexers do if they don't catch heals.

that's pretty obvious. right? The reason why dexers are gimped in group fights then is simple. Because archery isn't insta hit, they need to be way too close to the people that are casting on them and cannot offscreen nearly as easily as a mage can, making them easier to synch. So, if archery had an insta hit that was based on base dexterity, dexers could use it as their 7th skill and be able to synch bow shots at range. No? I think this is a perfectly valid suggestion, since just making archery insta hit would mean that tank mages would just be synching more damage on the field. I feel it's necessary to point this out since you didn't get it the first three times. ***This is a suggestion for balance and not a defense of my "broken mechanics"***

The other problem is regarding cross healing. In the extremely hypothetical event that there's an entire guild that plays dexers, they would still lose because they can't heal each other. There have been two things suggested to fix that, (exclusive to dexers so that mages can't do it as well), each providing a way for dexers to do this. But instead of recognizing this, everyone instead just pretends that we're all defending our own stances.

I completely expect you to A, not read this.. or B, whine that I'm just spewing words without offering reasonable input.

Read the thread before posting PvP newbie.

[Tragedyx]

Why doesn't a mage have to run away and play smart to win? I see all this "you need to be geared out" "you gotta be lucky" "you gotta play smart" "you gotta be really good". And when it comes to a mage "you can faceroll" :P

That doesn't sound very balanced to me

They do, after they blow their mana what do you think their going to do, sit there and waste even more Ghealing, no theyre going to run, and thats when you stay on top of them, DP, they are going to be forced to start chugging, and hopfully cast somthing, and then you keep on them. Trust me if a dexer plays right, when the mage is dumping they will have their kryss or katana or qstaff out and keep them dp'd disrupting everything they can, chugging through everything, and ghealing with magery. Then you have 100% the advantage.

Dexers are not underpowered, like many have said before mages are as good as they are going to get now. When more magic weapons start to come into play dexxers will start to shine more, but like stylist said you do not need magic **** to beat mages, you need to play smart, and understand how they work, its not complicated.

[Angus]

They do, after they blow their mana what do you think their going to do, sit there and waste even more Ghealing, no theyre going to run, and thats when you stay on top of them, DP, they are going to be forced to start chugging, and hopfully cast somthing, and then you keep on them. Trust me if a dexer plays right, when the mage is dumping they will have their kryss or katana or qstaff out and keep them dp'd disrupting everything they can, chugging through everything, and ghealing with magery. Then you have 100% the advantage.

Dexers are not underpowered, like many have said before mages are as good as they are going to get now. When more magic weapons start to come into play dexxers will start to shine more, but like stylist said you do not need magic **** to beat mages, you need to play smart, and understand how they work, its not complicated.

As a guy who only plays pure dexxer, while I can complain about the sucky state or archery and macing right now he's right, gotta know how to play it.. Pure dexxer is the best constant damage dealer cause a dexxer doesn't run on mana, a single weapon can last through 10-20 or more opponent before it's considered to be repaired.

If they retore macing's armor damage and stam drain,and fix archery I'll be stoked... but dexxers can own a mage right now as is. Sure it's item based class meanign you gotta be decked out to win, but that's the reality of battle, and better armed and more prepared soldier will win, nine times out of ten.

[Stylish]

Why doesn't a mage have to run away and play smart to win? I see all this "you need to be geared out" "you gotta be lucky" "you gotta play smart" "you gotta be really good". And when it comes to a mage "you can faceroll" :P

That doesn't sound very balanced to me
Because they use different playstyles. They are not the same.
It's like saying why should I have to stand close to my target using a spear when archers can fire from range?

And also, who said mages doesn't have to run/play smart to win. I can assure you that you're going to have to run alot from a skilled dexxer.

[Sultani]

Dexxers were never good pre-UO:R. We came here to play on a pre-UO:R shard, if you want to play a dexxer go to Hybrid.

Spoken like someone who never played pre UO:R