Murder Count Timers

[Vroc]

One of the biggest problems I foresee with IPY is the extremely short murder count timer. My understanding is that count timers are currently set at 8 hours for long counts and 4 hours for short counts, which is considerably shorter than they were in classic UO.

Considering the proposed patch to the paladin system, being red isn't such a drastic penalty as it first was when the paladin system was initially introduced. A long term count timer of only 8 hours allows players to kill upto three people every day without coming any closer to becoming red.

Additionally, the penalties for being caught by a paladin are based purely on short term counts, so a red without any short terms is effectively not penalized when caught. This contrasts steeply to the stat loss system for which short terms were originally used, in which a red would suffer a penalty regardless of who killed him or how, and he wouldn't have the option to pay money to avoid the stat loss.

So not only do reds face much more lax consequences, but they are much less likely to face any consequences at all due to the much shorter short term count timer. In addition, there are unlikely to be very many reds at all. Being a blue pk has huge advantages, and keeping the long term timer so low makes blue pking tangible even for the more dedicated pks.

The solution to these problems is easy, just return the values to 40 hours for long term counts and 8 hours for short terms.

/begin discussion

[Pud.S]

**** Blues.

[uniqueuser]

The solution to these problems is easy, just return the values to 40 hours for long term counts and 8 hours for short terms.The solution is to abolish this silly "timeout" model itself. Allowing murderers to passively repent requires nothing of them but to remain logged in 24/7 "macroing" off their counts. Lengthening the timer only encourages that behavior.

[Vroc]

The solution is to abolish this silly "timeout" model itself. Allowing murderers to passively repent requires nothing of them but to remain logged in 24/7 "macroing" off their counts. Lengthening the timer only encourages that behavior.

I would actually agree, and you are right, there are multiple solutions. I should have said that the simplest fix would be to return the timers to their original values.

A system where long term counts are considerably more difficult to remove would be interesting as well. For example, making long term counts cost money to remove, or some other system. I'd be happy to hear suggestions.

[Dodger]

I support a 40 hour long term and 8 hour short term count as well as reintroduction of the perma red status. If a player goes from blue to red to blue so many times, or say gets 30 total counts even if staying blue, that character permanently becomes red. Or, even if not permanently red, becomes a long term red for a fixed set of days rather than hours, such as one entire month of red regardless of log-in time.

[dontcounttoday]

I dont want to judge the timing of the murder counts until I've seen the Paladin system at work, but I do think bringing back perma red would be very cool

[Faded]

I support a 40 hour long term and 8 hour short term count as well as reintroduction of the perma red status. If a player goes from blue to red to blue so many times, or say gets 30 total counts even if staying blue, that character permanently becomes red. Or, even if not permanently red, becomes a long term red for a fixed set of days rather than hours, such as one entire month of red regardless of log-in time.

this

[Vroc]

I dont want to judge the timing of the murder counts until I've seen the Paladin system at work, but I do think bringing back perma red would be very cool

Well just so everyone is updated on the direction Az has the paladin system going, heres the link to the thread discussing his modifications to the system:
http://inporylem.com/forum/showthread.php?96-Paladin-Patch-1-(And-Poll)

Its my opinion that the paladin system won't be much to rely on, especially considering 4 hour short term counts allows a red to kill up to 6 people every day without a net gain of short terms.

I think a perma red status would be a good thing. There are of course arguments for blue pking, such as when a player loots your kills, but I think it is a better idea to remove the reasons to legitimately blue pk rather than encourage blue pking as a solution.

For example, if someone loots your kill, they should become grey to you. Likewise, if a player attacks your summoned demon or elemental, they should become grey to you.

Additionally, I would support a system where players become red if they have any short terms at all. Under the current system, this would make you red for 4 hours when you kill a player, effectively making you a temporary red.

[Faded]

For example, if someone loots your kill, they should become grey to you. Likewise, if a player attacks your summoned demon or elemental, they should become grey to you.

Additionally, I would support a system where players become red if they have any short terms at all. Under the current system, this would make you red for 4 hours when you kill a player, effectively making you a temporary red.

i like these too. execpt killing one player making you red for 4 hours immediately seems a little harsh, maybe after 2 kills. but i do like the idea. maybe make the character grey for 4 hours?

[Vroc]

Being red and being grey are pretty much the same thing. Consider that if you remove the legitimate reasons for blue pking, players wont need to kill other players. The only people who get short term counts will be PKs. If you kill someone, assuming it wasn't because they looted your kill, or because they were griefing you, you should deserve to go red. You should be prepared for it.

If you feel you have to kill someone, just be prepared to go red for 4 hours. If its that important to you, kill them and then go macro the count at your house.

[Faded]

paladins won't have the buff against the grey's though, it gives you a little advantage over going full red at 2 kills, and gives you time to burn off that kill. it would keep paladins from getting reports constantly about every kill, so they could focus on those repeat killers.

i'm not against 1 kill turning you red, but it just seems a little harsh. it would be nice to have a little "grey" area between the two.

[Vroc]

Paladin's dont have a buff against anyone in particular, they just get to wear medable plate. Its not like they do extra damage to reds.

[Faded]

they use platinum to buy items that give buff's against reds, so yes they will probably have a damage buff item, and have a defense buff item as well. they are leaving it up to us to figure these things out for ourselves. they don't expect just medable platemail to be the be all end all of paladin's, that and the orb of light is the only things they have told us about, theres still a lot more to come. az has stated if paladins aren't up to snuff they might add mounts for paladins as well.

[Vroc]

they use platinum to buy items that give buff's against reds, so yes they will probably have a damage buff item, and have a defense buff item as well. they are leaving it up to us to figure these things out for ourselves. they don't expect just medable platemail to be the be all end all of paladin's, that and the orb of light is the only things they have told us about, theres still a lot more to come. az has stated if paladins aren't up to snuff they might add mounts for paladins as well.

Mounts for paladins would be cool, and would remove most of my concerns regarding the ability of paladins to be effective. Guess we'll just have to see what happens. If paladins do have damage bonuses against reds, then I agree, it would be best to have a long term grey timer vs being red. Although a red player with 1 short term really doesn't have much to fear from paladins.

We are slightly off-topic though. Sounds like most people are in favor of returning the count timers to their normal numbers, and even harsher penalties as well to curtail blue pking. I probably should have made this a poll. Hopefully people will continue to post though, so that the devs see this. I think 8 hour long term counts are going to be pretty detrimental to IPY if the server goes live with them.

[Faded]

agreed

[Crankshaft]

I agree with VROC on this. If someone is killing blues that much they are a murderer. To me the short-term/ long-term reasoning was for the times you needed to defend yourself against a blue healer/pk, or thief that just suicided after succeeding. The 8 hour L/T timer will get gamed a lot imo. If you are a murderer you should be red, nothing wrong with it, its just a choice. I know I would be pretty pissed if the same guy killed my miner 4 times a day, made off with a ton of ingots and was still blue week after week.

[Biohazard]

Sounds like most people are in favor of returning the count timers to their normal numbers, and even harsher penalties as well to curtail blue pking.

You mean most people in this thread?

[Virindi]

You have to take into consideration the Paladin system and the monetary compensation to all the blue's who "contributed" to the red's kill count. It is fine as is.

[Vroc]

You have to take into consideration the Paladin system and the monetary compensation to all the blue's who "contributed" to the red's kill count. It is fine as is.

This isn't how the paladin system works. When a red is caught by a paladin (this means shackled by mindblast, killed, and then held at a shrine for 5 to 10 minutes without said paladin being killed by the red's friends), the red has three choices. He can pay 2500 gold per short term count, he can accept stat loss, or he can wait until his counts go away. The first choice is the most obvious one.

So lets say a red is shackled with 10 short term counts, he has to pay 25000 gold to res. Half that money is removed from the game as a gold sink, and the other half is redistributed to the 10 people who gave him those short term counts. Only people that were killed by the red will get money, and only if he chooses to pay money when caught.

I have taken into consideration the paladin system. However the penalties imposed by the paladin system have been reduced ten fold easily since it was fist explained by Az, and reds are proposed to have advantages of their own while fighting paladins. Based on the information given to us about the paladin system, paladins can hardly be said to have an advantage. The system is essentially just a high stakes game for both sides now.

Regardless, let us pretend that the paladin system was something to be feared by reds. If you were a pk, and you were worried about the paladin system, you are most likely to simply avoid being red. In classic UO this would be difficult, as you would need to wait 40 hours between kills to maintain your blue status - almost two days. On IPY players will be able to kill up to three people every day with the same effect, and it will be encouraged by the paladin system.

Consider the system with stat loss in classic UO, with short term count timers of 8 hours. Counts lasted twice as long as they will on IPY, so you were much more likely to not only face a penalty, but a more severe penalty. You would face stat loss no matter who killed you or how. Players didn't have to shackle you, they didn't have to join NPC guilds to shackle you, and they didn't have to babysit you for 10 minutes at a shrine while you scream for help on vent. They also didn't have the option to pay 25k to avoid statloss. I don't think anyone would consider the paladin system harsh when contrasted to the original stat loss. And again of course, short terms last half as long here, so even on the rare occasions you face penalties, the penalties will be reduced even further.

What exactly have I failed to take into consideration about the paladin system?


You mean most people in this thread?

I take it you don't like the idea of returning counts to their classic values. Feel free to tell us why, inside of making snide comments.

[Az]

Only the basics of those Paladin changes were implemented. There is no shackling, there are no Dread Lords. We're waiting to see how things turn out when deciding which side to buff.

[Vroc]

Only the basics of those Paladin changes were implemented. There is no shackling, there are no Dread Lords. We're waiting to see how things turn out when deciding which side to buff.

Well that is good news to me. Will we see another update regarding the paladin system?

I'm still concerned that blue pks will be rampant on this server, regardless of the state of the paladin system. As long as the long term count timer remains so low people will abuse it. Players playing the nice guy rarely find reasons to kill people (I've had two murder counts ever on my current server, and they were both for people relentlessly looting my kills).

If it is necessary to leave the short term timer at 4 hours to balance the paladin system thats cool, but if players are killing other players more often than once a day I don't think that there is much question that they should be red.

A harsh paladin system will further encourage blue pking though, and it is an activity that is gearing to be supported by game mechanics.