10-In-10: PvE

[Thayn]

If you haven't noticed, the new 10-In-10 is up!

http://azaroth.org/2010/12/19/10-in-10-pve/

So what does everyone think about the approach in general?

I like the basic premise, that PvE items will have no bearing on PvP. At the same time, it really looks like it's giving something to the PvE/RP'ers to keep them interested. This makes me REALLY curious about Virtues and Achievements though, and how they are all going to tie together.

But as a warrior, I must protest! Mages shouldn't have plate they can med through! THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO LOOK AS COOL AS ME! /rage.

All and all, looks promising!

[Baltar]

I gotta say, I'm not into the PvE all that much... BUT.. and this is why the design philosophy that is going on here is so wise.. Is if it doesnt HURT my gameplay, then whats the harm?

I dont like this post on the blog

" "World Bosses… …(see: raid)” "

Im not a raider.. but.. i dont dislike raids.. the problem is, no game with Raids has ever done any amount of pvsp properly.

So, i say bring on the raids.. just leave it out of my pvsp

which is exactly what IPY is doing. Hats off :)

[uniqueuser]

I like the basic premise, that PvE items will have no bearing on PvP.They will in fights that take place in areas with the monsters that they provide defensive bonuses against.

[Az]

Yep. -10% damage from that lich is a real PvP game breaker.

I say we tell all PvErs to go to hell.

Edit:

I can always count on Squire UU to provide a negative viewpoint in a manner more intelligent than "AZ UR GAY". So that's always good to have around. ;)

My sass was unnecessary. I apologize. ;)

[Thayn]

They will in fights that take place in areas with the monsters that they provide defensive bonuses against.

You have to meet some very select requirements to gain any benefit. It has to be against specific monsters, and they have to be attacking both the attacker and the victim equally.

Seems like a very narrow margin of advantage. Especially since (and I may be stereotyping a bit here) most PvE'ers who would come for this and actively pursue it are not generally expert PvP'ers. This tends to appeal to the hardcore PvE'ers and RP'ers.. Not so much to PvP'ers.

And really, if it's THAT big an advantage, I'm sure the PvP'ers will go after these suits as well. The learning curve from PvP to PvE is a LOT easier than PvE to PvP.

[dontcounttoday]

As a person that does a lot more PvE than PvP, this addition sounds awesome! It really should effect pvp at all, except that if PKs know theres a rare spawn about but they cant kill it themselves, they can always camp it to sabotage the players coming to kill it. This is ok though, its something we should have to consider before jumping into a fight.

"Each of the classic dungeons (Destard, Deceit, Hythloth, and so on) will have an extra level added below the normal ones. These are entirely new areas and unlockable only with high Virtue scores. You’ll also need to max out your achievements in the dungeon you’re attempting to adventure further into"

Several things I like here in this one paragraph. New levels to all the dungeons, sweet. Only the virtuous will be able to get there but thats ok I suppose. Very curious to see what these levels entail. Also, I wasnt aware there are achievements at all in the game. Having dungeon achievements is very cool and adds another reason to explore around more and more. I like this update a lot and look forward to trying it out in game sometime!

[Severus]

This definitely sounds awesome. I'm amazed at how often Az reminds us that he isn't just posting up a server for people to play UO on, but constantly working to improve the game by adding new experiences that we will all wish had been around the whole time. Thanks for all the hard work Az & team!

I can't wait to see the virtue system explained in more detail. I'm not a big fan of raiding, myself, but I'll be excited to get out and explore all the new things that are coming down the pipe.

[uniqueuser]

Yep. -10% damage from that lich is a real PvP game breaker.I suppose you'll tell me that stuff like "55 AR against demons/gargoyles" is a pittance too.

By downplaying the significance of their properties you only make the items less enticing to the very people they were created for.

[Jack]

Do u need a hug?

[Az]

I suppose you'll tell me that stuff like "55 AR against demons/gargoyles" is a pittance too.

By downplaying the significance of their properties you only make the items less enticing to the very people they were created for.

That's the warrior set.

Regular invulnerability plate is 55 AR against everything.

These sets are about five hundred times harder to get than invulnerability items.

There is no benefit here to PvP that isn't exceptionally situational and hilariously illogical to attempt to exploit purposely.

[Diz]

I dont like this post on the blog

" "World Bosses… …(see: raid)” "

Im not a raider.. but.. i dont dislike raids.. the problem is, no game with Raids has ever done any amount of pvsp properly.


I don't know if you were quoting me or not, and if you were, what you were even trying to say. I was saying that raids are cool as **** and is something that people could get excited for.

Raids had great PvP in WoW before the first expansion. Massive griefing/wiping of 50+ if a couple PKs could get a good dump on the main tank (and backup). Fun times. A few other games have had this type of outdoor raid experience. Definitely tons more fun than any instanced raid experience I've ever had.

[uniqueuser]

That's the warrior set.The same warrior set with the "-10% magic damage taken from demons/gargoyles", huh.

These sets are about five hundred times harder to get than invulnerability items.Then the fact that they're going to be so uncommon only makes it all the more absurd that you're going to such lengths (e.g., mage plate with the AR of leather) to prevent them from interfering in PvP. Christ, people won't even want to risk wearing them for their intended purpose at that level of rarity.

[Pud.S]

Christ, people won't even want to risk wearing them for their intended purpose at that level of rarity.

IMO, this is not a bad thing. Only the baddest, and most confident players should want to risk wearing them outdoors.

[Dirus]

I dig it, Az. As you said giving more without taking anything away. Achievements are always rad, too. Having those goals gives players who might get bored of running around the sandbox erratically goals to complete and focus on. I love achievements in games and glad to see them implemented here. I'm super stoked to see how Virtues are going to be tied in with them and just how that system is going to work.

My only concern about the PvE rewards is the scenario where a group goes into a dungeon or finds a world boss, schools it, gets loot (YAY!). Then a gank squad rolls through and wipes them out taking said loot that they could not have acquired themselves. Or I recall home having just slayed a raid with my bros, finishing the awesome dragon killer set I've been trying to complete for months. Kal Ort Por - BAM - red on my doorstep, get PK'ed, weeks of hard work with a bunch of friends down the drain. I am upset and /quit life.

I don't know that blessing these items is the answer, although I would like to see it. But the fact that you could die and lose all your tits gear to some PK is quite disturbing to me. Seems to lend incentive to know when raiders are raiding and just kill them to get these sets without having to go through the countless hours of raiding with your buddies for it.

I know this would open up opportunities for Paladin/PVP character escorts to raids. But it's hard enough to get a crew together to do a raid sometimes much less try and hire a goon squad so you don't get **** on by a red who knows your raiding schedule.

That's my concern, it will probably play out just fine. I am really excited about all aspects of this shard, PvP included (esp. pirating,) but these PvE changes are really going to expand the player base and satisfy more people's play styles.

[Az]

My only concern about the PvE rewards is the scenario where a group goes into a dungeon or finds a world boss, schools it, gets loot (YAY!). Then a gank squad rolls through and wipes them out taking said loot that they could not have acquired themselves. Or I recall home having just slayed a raid with my bros, finishing the awesome dragon killer set I've been trying to complete for months. Kal Ort Por - BAM - red on my doorstep, get PK'ed, weeks of hard work with a bunch of friends down the drain. I am upset and /quit life.

This is an Open World problem... not my problem. ;)

Hah, just foolin' around. Glad you like it.

[Baltar]

I don't know if you were quoting me or not, and if you were, what you were even trying to say. I was saying that raids are cool as **** and is something that people could get excited for.

Raids had great PvP in WoW before the first expansion. Massive griefing/wiping of 50+ if a couple PKs could get a good dump on the main tank (and backup). Fun times. A few other games have had this type of outdoor raid experience. Definitely tons more fun than any instanced raid experience I've ever had.

I apologize.. I thought it was kind of /sarcasm. Im sorry, i didnt mean to misrepresent your point.

[Dirus]

It is true, it's an open world problem. And one that, knowing my luck, will affect me at some point and I know I'll be pissed when it happens. There is just so much, time, effort, and teamwork that go into raiding and knowing all that can be taken away from my (my corpse) by someone who never put in an ounce of effort to get these sets is troublesome.

I a good solution would be for the PvE sets to be unlootable by anyone who PK's you. Not to say they would be blessed, they would stay on your corpse always. But if anyone who killed you in a criminal act could not loot these very rare, special items from your blue corpse I'd be more comfortable spending the long hours to get them. It would still require great caution when going out in this armor due to the fact getting overrun by monsters or going grey from some criminal act could make them lootable if you did die. But that is in the players control. This would give those not so dedicated to PvP a little security when working towards attaining the sets and prevent player killers from farming raid groups as they exit their hours in a dungeon session.

I feel like this sounds whiny. But in past MMO's I've raided in, there is no way I would have endured 12 hours a week of wiping on new content if I knew the rewards at the end of the tunnel weren't going to be mine for sure. If that wasn't whiny enough-

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! I WANT MY LOOT AND I DON'T WANT THE BAD RED PEOPLE TO GET IT!!!!! WAAAAAAAA!! *rolls around o the floor kicking and screaming*

[Baltar]

It is true, it's an open world problem. And one that, knowing my luck, will affect me at some point and I know I'll be pissed when it happens. There is just so much, time, effort, and teamwork that go into raiding and knowing all that can be taken away from my (my corpse) by someone who never put in an ounce of effort to get these sets is troublesome.

I a good solution would be for the PvE sets to be unlootable by anyone who PK's you. Not to say they would be blessed, they would stay on your corpse always. But if anyone who killed you in a criminal act could not loot these very rare, special items from your blue corpse I'd be more comfortable spending the long hours to get them. It would still require great caution when going out in this armor due to the fact getting overrun by monsters or going grey from some criminal act could make them lootable if you did die. But that is in the players control. This would give those not so dedicated to PvP a little security when working towards attaining the sets and prevent player killers from farming raid groups as they exit their hours in a dungeon session.

I feel like this sounds whiny. But in past MMO's I've raided in, there is no way I would have endured 12 hours a week of wiping on new content if I knew the rewards at the end of the tunnel weren't going to be mine for sure. If that wasn't whiny enough-

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! I WANT MY LOOT AND I DON'T WANT THE BAD RED PEOPLE TO GET IT!!!!! WAAAAAAAA!! *rolls around o the floor kicking and screaming*

Youre not being whiney, dont worry..

I think your idea is understandable and absolutely valid.. BUT. .The problem is.. This is UO. This was the difference between UO and the other games. Being in the dungeon came with no guarantees for your survival or your stuff.

I would hate it if PvE'ers felt like they were getting a bad rap though.. Maybe im being a bit too open and shut with it. Just, of ALL the things that have been discussed on these forums, this is the only one where I said to myself "ehh.. slippery slope"

I dunno, thats something for smarter people than myself to figure out .. but my gut instinct would be .. just cant do it. It wouldnt be UO.

[ReputableReprobate]

@Dirus
i think you're missing the point..
what makes pre-AOS UO so great is the idea of Risk vs Reward and when you set rules to insure items and prevent people from stealing or looting them off you or a corpse, you cripple the philosophy of Risk vs Reward and that makes things stagnant. Doesn't it add to the value/appeal of having something cool knowing that you might not have it forever? this game is amazing because of the lack of regulation and the freedom the developers give you to do what you want within the game world.

[Samuell]

These sets are about five hundred times harder to get than invulnerability items.


Then the fact that they're going to be so uncommon only makes it all the more absurd that you're going to such lengths (e.g., mage plate with the AR of leather) to prevent them from interfering in PvP.

That's without mentioning that:


Light Gold Hythloth (a level 1 set, or the most “common”

Presumably higher levels will be rarer still.


They will [have bearing] in fights that take place in areas with the monsters that they provide defensive bonuses against.

At level 1 the -%10 magic damage and 55 ar is just the beginning. At levels 2 + we can expect some sort of level progression and the bonuses will increase.

These just detail the facts, so I don't understand why people meet them so defensively. I think there are some decent ideas, though between this and the UO: R Injection stuff we'll just end up with nice ideas cobbled together. I'd rather focus on reproducing sound mechanics. It's not as if it has been done so well before that we should move on to such fanciful niceties.


In a final note, I'd rather have the terse, occasionally acerbic, yet substantive critiques of uniqueuser over a fawning parade full of compliments and congratulations (usually mutual self-congratulations.)

[Azvacar]

If someone manages to get the loot from said boss, surely they should be able to handle and are organized enough to survive a few pks.

The skills of successful PKs and successful PvErs don't overlap enough. This disparity is even more apparent in games like WoW.

Edit: Doh. Looks like we lost a page of discussion.

[Dirus]

Edit: Doh. Looks like we lost a page of discussion.

I was just noticing that.... Had some other pointless point to make but I can't remember what I was going to reply to, hehe. Ah well. I do agree that the risk v reward is heavily stacked to the PK when it comes to this. And that yeah a group of folks taking down a big bad boss could probably handle some PK's, but they will certainly have some among them that have skills like provo that don't do jack for them in a PvP situation. For their sake when it happens I hope they have the numbers to stave off the onslaught!

[Baltar]

I was just noticing that.... Had some other pointless point to make but I can't remember what I was going to reply to, hehe. Ah well. I do agree that the risk v reward is heavily stacked to the PK when it comes to this. And that yeah a group of folks taking down a big bad boss could probably handle some PK's, but they will certainly have some among them that have skills like provo that don't do jack for them in a PvP situation. For their sake when it happens I hope they have the numbers to stave off the onslaught!

and this is where.. depending on shard population, roleplayers, etc... Paladins could really become interesting, a small group of adventurers hires a Paladin to come with them and basically look over em while doing a raid or something.. a few pks show up, these provokers and stuff basically toss in assisting fire and heals while the paladin takes on the reds.

This could all be very interesting

[Jay]

I don't know if you were quoting me or not, and if you were, what you were even trying to say. I was saying that raids are cool as **** and is something that people could get excited for.

Raids had great PvP in WoW before the first expansion. Massive griefing/wiping of 50+ if a couple PKs could get a good dump on the main tank (and backup). Fun times. A few other games have had this type of outdoor raid experience. Definitely tons more fun than any instanced raid experience I've ever had.


UO had this in champ spawns when they first came out... For a good while too. The end result (+20 skills) sucked... But the raid pvp that was around at champ spawns was sooooo much fun.

[Diz]

Samuell your last statement was supreme irony.

Lulz.

[Azvacar]

Luckily we don't have to choose between mutual masturbators and insightful pricks. We get several shades here.

[Singularity]

How about this:
Each item is blessed but still stealable.
Each item has X% chance to drop upon death. -- or -- X item(s) are guaranteed to drop upon death.

This makes it so that there is still incentive for reds to kill PvErs and makes the loss less devastating when PvErs die.

[Azvacar]

I could live with full inventory and 3 wear locations. I'd also be happy with full loot though.

[harack]

This is a great 10 in 10 feature and will add so much to the server, without breaking any of the other features!! I like the idea of the 5th dungeon levels because essentially they will be less populated at the start and be quite a good place to farm and the challenge of getting your loot all the way to the top floor without getting killed by other mobs or pkers!

[Quantum]

I like how this fits in with the whole entire plan. Sure, rare spawns and boss mobs will attract PKs and thieves, but they will also attract more PvEers and Paladins and Detectives. Don't wanna fight the mobs? Find a portal. This system drives activity and longevity for both PvPers and non-combatants. Exactly what this kind of server needs to encourage - everything but PvP, because the PvP is implied by reputation. Also, WoW was pretty successful, there's no shame in Az's game to bite their PvE style - it works.

However... gotta look at it from the PvE point of view. If you get PKed wearing regular armor, who cares. But if you spend months and months collecting the suit, are you really gonna want to wear it to a dungeon you can't recall out of? And at that point, why even get the suit if you're not going to use it? I understand risk vs reward and all that, but do PvEers? I guess it's still semi-successful even if people only bank-sit in it, but still. How many people actually wore full daemon armor out into dungeons, or glacial staves?

* So I came up with a solution after about a minute of reading posts and seeing other people thought of the same thing (duh, I'm late on this one). When a boss monster dies, heal everyone who did damage to the boss and open a gate to town. Zelda did it. You don't have to go through. People can still kill you on your way to it, or block you from getting right in, or whatever. But you shouldn't have to fight your way out with all your phat loots through PKs camping the entrance and stuff. You earned breaking the no-gate rule. Wait 15 seconds after the boss dies, a golden gate (undispellable) opens on the corpse, lasts for 30 sec or so, and it leads right to a guarded bank (assuming reds can be in town and have to commit a criminal action to get whacked - otherwise reds automatically go to a random red-friendly bank?). This would be a good way to give people wearing pve armor to complete serious pve content an easy "out", without running them through the gauntlet. An extra layer of protection, which I think is necessary here.

Also, a few questions - Does the armor drop as a full set, or in individual pieces that you have to collect & trade? Do you need the full set to get the bonus? If you're just wearing the gloves, do you get like +1 instead of +10? Are the effects on the blog only applicable within that dungeon, or are those the general effects with other bonuses within the dungeon that aren't listed?

[Diz]

Lol! Zelda!!!

"It's a secret to everybody."

[skimmo]

Remember you'll only be wearing that pve suit on level 5, which not everyone will be able to access, and you'll be with a large group of people.

Just dont farm covetous harpies in your sexy pve suit.

[okaygo]

I really like the ideas Az has presented in his 10-to-10, I think it's all going to work wonderfully.

[Vroc]

I'm not quite so optomistic that this system will work out great and everyone will love it. People will enjoy the items, but the people who will enjoy these items the most are the people who are most likely to die with them. Unfortunately, these people are also the lifeblood of a thriving server, you have to have underdogs, or pvp becomes nothing but reds and all the blues leave the server.

The most obvious solution would be to allow recalling/gating out of dungeons. This gives blue PvE players the chance to just run with their gear. You could potentially add a combat timer, such as after 5 seconds in combat they can no longer recall so as to prevent blues from fighting a bit until things look grim then recalling out.

I know a lot of people will bitch about this suggestion, but typically the people who want to run are the ones that dont have a chance of winning. UO PvP shouldn't be a giant gank fest. In my opinion the focus of PvP should be the kings system and O/C, not ganking noobs and pve players in dungeons. It should happen a bit to keep them on their toes, but I dont think there is any compelling reason to make it easy for the reds. Its not like they wont find other things to do. You can't say the same for the PvE players though, if you deprive them of PvE they will just quit.

[Diz]

Please differentiate between non-consensual PvP and consensual PvP.

Some people enjoy PKing more than actual PvP. UO has always had the capability for non-consensual combat to thrive. Until Trammel came.

[Vroc]

Please differentiate between non-consensual PvP and consensual PvP.

Some people enjoy PKing more than actual PvP. UO has always had the capability for non-consensual combat to thrive. Until Trammel came.

I don't think there is anything wrong with non-consensual PvP, but classic UO you never lost much unless you were carrying stupid things like runebooks and rares around to dungeons. Maybe if you had a really powerful weapon you would have the potential to lose alot.

You can't just add super powerful and extremely rare items, expect players to actually use them, and then say "oh well, its risk vs reward". I can honestly say that if these items are as rare as az claims I will never use them, because the risk of losing them outweighs the reward. You have to either make them semi rare, or provide a mechanic to lower the risk.

To restate that for clarity, all I'm saying is that adding these items will upset the current status quo of risk vs reward, which is bad for the PvE players. No one will complain directly about the items, but there will be alot more raging, and alot of QQing, and probably more than a few people who leave the server after they lose their suit of armor that was worth more than their house. These people aren't going to complain about the items and ask for them to be removed though, they are going to complain about how people take the items from them, and how they want insurance on the items. Thats just how these things work, and if we get this wrong it will be the beginning of the slippery slope to AoS.

[Diz]

I don't think there is anything wrong with non-consensual PvP, but classic UO you never lost much unless you were carrying stupid things like runebooks and rares around to dungeons. Maybe if you had a really powerful weapon you would have the potential to lose alot.

You can't just add super powerful and extremely rare items, expect players to actually use them, and then say "oh well, its risk vs reward". I can honestly say that if these items are as rare as az claims I will never use them, because the risk of losing them outweighs the reward. You have to either make them semi rare, or provide a mechanic to lower the risk.

To restate that for clarity, all I'm saying is that adding these items will upset the current status quo of risk vs reward, which is bad for the PvE players. No one will complain directly about the items, but there will be alot more raging, and alot of QQing, and probably more than a few people who leave the server after they lose their suit of armor that was worth more than their house. These people aren't going to complain about the items and ask for them to be removed though, they are going to complain about how people take the items from them, and how they want insurance on the items. Thats just how these things work, and if we get this wrong it will be the beginning of the slippery slope to AoS.

Sure you could lose important things back in classic UO that you were carrying... you named several already... also, stuff like a house deed or macro supplies...

I'm not saying anything about expecting players to actually use them or not. I'm particularly referring to the following quote:


I know a lot of people will bitch about this suggestion, but typically the people who want to run are the ones that dont have a chance of winning. UO PvP shouldn't be a giant gank fest. In my opinion the focus of PvP should be the kings system and O/C, not ganking noobs and pve players in dungeons. It should happen a bit to keep them on their toes, but I dont think there is any compelling reason to make it easy for the reds. Its not like they wont find other things to do. You can't say the same for the PvE players though, if you deprive them of PvE they will just quit.

I'm just pointing out, the same can be said for PKers. If every single thing is just done to sheet on PKers, if you deprive them because you (by you I mean bizzaro IPY 2.0 in the quoted scenario) fundamentally misunderstand and misrepresent that PKing is not PvP nor the focus of real PvP, they (PKers) will quit as well.

I just felt obligated to point out that the focus of PvP was never about PKing or related to it except in combat balance (and the dreaded RiskVsReward), they are two totally different things. O/C, Kings, etc... that **** is about PvPing, and is balanced with respect to it... Paladins, PvE risk vs reward... that is about PKing, and is balanced with respect to it.

[Vroc]

I just felt obligated to point out that the focus of PvP was never about PKing or related to it except in combat balance (and the dreaded RiskVsReward), they are two totally different things. O/C, Kings, etc... that **** is about PvPing, and is balanced with respect to it... Paladins, PvE risk vs reward... that is about PKing, and is balanced with respect to it.

True enough, and an important distinction to make. But ultimately the distinction that I was trying to make is independent of this in the sense that it concerns a real possibility, not a theoretical one. That isn't to say that PKs being driven out isn't a possibility too, but I don't personally feel that it is a concern with the current system and I don't think anyone else is debating it either, so I don't see much point in addressing it. If I miss read your post and you are actually making this claim, then I apologize.

You mention paladins as an offset for the increased risk of PKing, but paladins are honestly just a pretty name and little functionality. Az already compromised the penalties heavily by adding additional outs, removing restrictions, and flat out tipping the scales in favor of PKs with the 10% damage boost (which is in my opinion superior to medable plate, the most serious PvP comes down to sync dumps, not to mention your 10% damage doesn't drop as loot the way paladin plate will).

All of that isn't even the tip of the iceberg though. Short term counts wear off in only 4 hours, and long terms in 8 hours. I will be very surprised if pks have more than 5 short term counts when they do get caught and I think even less people have considered how rampant blue PKing will be, since everyone can essentially kill three people every day and never get any closer to being red. And on top of all of this, blues wont have any escape plan from what amounts to most likely another blue player stabbing them in the back when they are low while they are wearing this extremely expensive gear because they cant even recall.

Explain to me where the reward for the PvE player is? and explain to me where the risk is for reds or, more likely, the blue pks? The reward is all stacked to the PKs and the risk is all stacked to the honest(non pking) blues.

[Diz]

The reward is downstream boons of players not getting dominated by PKs, if the proper channels are used and organizations (like Paladins + noob support) facilitate the positive use of dungeons and the PvE within for the benefit of the majority and not for PKs to run rampant in.

In other words, the way Paladins and PvE and the risk vs reward is, with PKs coming in to that situation... it's up to the community to do this stuff themselves. If it's a pretty name and little functionality, as the community deems, then the server will see PKs running things... imagine say, a UO where paladins are paid by a tamer collective to guard Destard. Eh? It's all meta, man, the reward would be the freedom to play the game without fear of being constantly seeing "You are being attacked by HORSE COQ!"

[uniqueuser]

10% damage boostWhat're you talking about?

[Vroc]

What're you talking about?

http://inporylem.com/forum/showthread.php?96-Paladin-Patch-1-(And-Poll)

Az proposed a patch a while back that allows reds to cumulate a damage boost against paladins so long as they kill one every two days of play time (which is not likely to ever wear off unless the pk just has trouble killing things period or they are macroing counts).

And Diz, thats all well and good, but I'm pretty sure the stated philosophy of the paladin system was that the players aren't capable of policing themselves, which I would agree with. This is why Az originally proposed the paladin system, to increase risk for the PKs.

[Diz]

It's not just to increase risk for PKs, it's also to boost incentive (increase reward) for anti...

..theres more to Paladins than appeasing a community that consumes itself because it knows no better - the same thing can occur here again, but there is just more at stake for both sides of the fence in 2.0... and more tools to do it with... which is super exciting if you ask me.

[Vroc]

Well we'll see how it all pans out I guess. I'm not super bothered, as I will play regardless, but I prefer the server to be healthy.

I think siege post-AoS would be a good case study though. I guess the server was never super popular, but it died harder than the rest with the addition of high profile gear. The prime difference being that siege never had insurance, so your arties were always fair game. This is similar to whats being done in IPY 2.0 and I think its a mistake.

The biggest problem I think we will have is blue pks, but thats a debate probably better suited to a different thread.

[allerk]

I hope Az has something in mind to keep the integrity of this mechanic, since I'm pretty sure that just the implementation of what he described won't work out alone.
Everybody here knows that several shards already tried out pre-aos champ spawns with custom rewards (decorations, gold) instead of the old gamebreaking power scrolls. They didn't enforce anti-red like Az will with the Paladin system, but you can see why no one did the champ spawns except on population-dead shards. First it required a lot of effort to actually do the spawn (even more than on post-aos, by obvious reasons), and second because it required close to no effort to raid the spawn (since pre-aos takes gaming skill into play, instead of gear power). Fact is, its way too much risk against the said reward. Something has to be done (while remaining true to the old UO rules) in order to balance risk and reward.

There are several ways to fix this, but you need to go for the less carebearish approach. Something like when the boss got down to around 20% hp, all players who haven't given a decent contribution to the fight are expelled from the boss area, and the said area gets locked until like 30 seconds after the boss death. This won't stop raiding, but at least the reds will have to take at least 1/5 of the boss health instead of just jumping into some clueless PvEr's and looting their rare gear.

As for wearing the rare gear, its also a delicate matter. While the set you mentioned is 500x harder to get than invul, it isn't really even 10x better. So why bother getting it at all? Why wear it? Again, the risk is way too high considering the reward. Judging by your clever approach of PvP's risk vs reward, I do believe you have something in mind, but since you didn't mention it explicitly, I guess it doesn't hurt to give my own opinion. Maybe if only people wearing such rare sets could enter the said 5th level, then the risks would be more homogeneous.

[ODB]

I like it
the way i figure is, if i ever end up getting a set of this stuff
i'll probably end up selling it
because i die a lot and that is just part of this game for me, and as such i rarely bother carrying around magic or rare ****
but i'm diggin the idea lots, still

[PowerArmor]

Relax about losing your gear to a PK. That raid group you're with is pretty much guaranteed to be bigger than the PK squad rolling through. Should your 20 man squad die to 4 guys in sandals and misc leather armor, well, that's between you and the screaming on Ventillo.

[Pud.S]

Good Thread.

[Vroc]

Relax about losing your gear to a PK. That raid group you're with is pretty much guaranteed to be bigger than the PK squad rolling through. Should your 20 man squad die to 4 guys in sandals and misc leather armor, well, that's between you and the screaming on Ventillo.

I find this unlikely, reds are very popular in modern UO because nearly everyone is a veteran. Revelation has a population of like 150 and theres still red gank squads of upto 10 players. If blues can field raids of 20 people reds will too, or more likely, they will field more players.

I agree with allerk, the risk vs reward system isn't going to work as it stands. There's way too much proposed risk without very much reward. As much as everyone hates anything resembling item insurance, you can't add items like these without doing something to tone down the risk element.

I'm not saying that this makes it all bad though, just that the proposed system is off balance. Its looking like there will be very little reason to collect these items. Reds of course will come and take them from you however for the same reason they bother to take your store bought sandals and hat when they kill you.