Boats, boats, boats, oh my

[Seneschal]

Since boats are even more integral to Britannia here on IPY than in previous Ultima Online shards, it becomes of utmost importance to work through a lot of the terrible mechanics currently in-place.

We are currently brainstorming a few changes to the system to help combat greifers and help protect owners, while still keeping in mind the deviously clever boat thieves.

Without a doubt though, something needs to be changed. Daily occurances like the following picture are becoming even more commonplace as more boats enter the world.

http://i.imgur.com/dTEla.png

Some ideas (none final yet):

Ghosts cannot control ship.
Person with the key overrides all commands.
Person with the key can eject players from boats.
All players can recall onto the boat key.
Players are automatically ejected from the boat when the boat is drydocked.


I previously installed a short patch where the boat's owner can override any command for 10 seconds. However, this didn't solve much. Just a temporary fix to help alleviate some of the spam. A much more thorough system is needed.

If you have ideas, concerns, or wish to discuss this matter maturely, here and now is when you should do it.

We will be paying attention to this thread when making any final decisions (soon).

Thanks!

[Downs]

I like 2 3 4 and can see the need for 5, but what if someone dies on their boat? they cant control it back to town as a ghost?

[cronk]

i like 2 & 5 the best. i think the combination of those two would solve the bulk of the problems.

is there a way to have live players override any ghosts? ghost-use of ships should only happen as a last resort for people trying to use an un-contested boat.

[Seneschal]

i like 2 & 5 the best. i think the combination of those two would solve the bulk of the problems.

is there a way to have live players override any ghosts? ghost-use of ships should only happen as a last resort for people trying to use an un-contested boat.

Yes, we can do anything. ;)

[Budikah]

One thing that got my boat stolen (my fault) was that I simply forgot that boats had planks on each side. Unlocking and locking one does not lock or unlock the other.

This in itself is something that is going to be terribly confusing to a lot of players... or... maybe just myself.

Edit - Sorry, I see what the intent of this post is.

Ghost's shouldn't be able to give commands. That is merely my few cents. Not unless you train the Tillerman with Spirit Speak :P

Also, eject everyone once it is drydocked.

[pelo]

The issue with ghosts not being able to control boats at all means that there's a potential for a player being stuck after getting killed on the boat itself. That's just a pain in the neck...

I like 2 3 and 5. I guess I never understood stealing others' boats, but if that's one of the things you're aiming for than 4 would make sense. Generally, my use of boats has been limited to trapping pets on them :P

How would ejecting players from the boat work? Near the closest land mass or where the player boarded the boat? Can we implement a "walk the plank" effect and some sharks =P

[dontcounttoday]

Ghosts cannot control ship.
Person with the key overrides all commands.
Person with the key can eject players from boats.
All players can recall onto the boat key.
Players are automatically ejected from the boat when the boat is drydocked.



My thoughts on these are as follows:
1.) This is a fine idea. It eliminates the problem with people ghosting onto ships at opportune times, staying hidden and taking it over when the time is right. If a player happens to die on his own ship, you should be able to simply use the help menu to be taken to land. The backup key in your bank will allow you to safely recall back to your ship after you res. Problem 1 solved.
2.) This should have always been a rule. Consider the person with the key the captain. It is his boat, and if he is on it, the tiller will obey him over all else.
3.) No, if you were unwise enough to leave your boat unlocked or a thief happens to stealth onto your boat behind you, this is your own fault. i dont believe boats should be the safe haven that houses are.
4.) NO please no. I already hate that you can recall onto your boat, but I see that the complaining and paging of GMs would be a lot to deal with if you couldnt, so if this must stay in, fine, but allowing ALL people to recall onto a key TRULY eliminates the no-recall islands. A single boat could be blockaded and protected by other boats or a guild and used as a constant direct access to these islands. Its a cheap bypass and would be used en mass. Even if you could somehow prevent boats from being used as free instant taxis to the islands, theres still no point to allowing multiple people to recall off the key in the first place.
5.) I could go either way on this one. Dont really care I guess, but I would vote no if given the chance.

I didnt realize there was such a problem to begin with so I havent put any thought into things, but from the issue you brought up and the solutions you came up with...some of the solutions should absolutely take care of any issues. I would hate for things to become too safe with boats. The server seems to be leaning towards more and more implementation of content to ensure safety, and I dont agree with that. Safety truly belongs in trammel. There should be risk and you should have to be careful with your expensive things in game or face losing them.

[dontcounttoday]

One thing that got my boat stolen (my fault) was that I simply forgot that boats had planks on each side. Unlocking and locking one does not lock or unlock the other.

This in itself is something that is going to be terribly confusing to a lot of players... or... maybe just myself.


I mean no offense to you, but this is your own fault. Boats work just about exactly the same as they always have, and as with houses, forgetting to lock up is your fault and should not result in changes to game play to make it safer.

The ghost issue though obviously does need attention, but I think Sene pretty much has a good idea of how to fix it

[Populus]

Priorities:
Alive with key #1
Alive #2
Dead #3

[marmalade]

The server seems to be leaning towards more and more implementation of content to ensure safety, and I dont agree with that. Safety truly belongs in trammel. There should be risk and you should have to be careful with your expensive things in game or face losing them.

what he said.

what the big deal with that screenshot? guy got his boat hijacked and it was his own fault. he lost 4k or something, who cares?

[MatrondeWinter]

I don't think that ghosts should have any control and they should also not block dry-docking. The only purpose a ghost would have on a boat is waiting to get ressed or leaving. Perhaps give them the option to walk off the plank (like you do to get on land) and have it take them to the closest landmass or whatever.

I suppose it would make sense to allow a ghost to sail a boat if there is NO other living people on board and they are the owner, but that is the only case where it really makes sense because that would allow people out hunting who accidentally die to monsters to get back somewhere with their boat safely.

[Stigmas]

There should be a way for a dexxer to get in on the boat fighting. Some sort of rope you can throw onto another persons boat to board it.

[Boogie]

I don't think a ghost should be able to have any control over the boat unless he is the owner. If the owner dies on his boat, he can issue commands to get home. There isn't really any reason a random person should be allowed to be totally undetectable, walk onto your boat, and take it when you get off.

[Populus]

There should be a way for a dexxer to get in on the boat fighting. Some sort of rope you can throw onto another persons boat to board it.

"Dexxers" can join the fight with archery.

[jammaplaya]

ok, now, aside from dexxers.... back to the topic at hand. nobody should be able to remove people from the boat, nor should anything but ghosts be removed during a drydocking. The alive people on the boat should have control: the problem is that if you steal a boat because you were able to grab the key over the side, and hop on, the ghost may be the owner of the ship and he can easily take you to somewhere that you cant recall and keep you as a prisoner, which is ridiculous. On this same hand it should be imperitave that the boat theif allow the ghost to get off the boat, either by means of a gate or by letting him off on the shore. I don't mind that only the owner of the boat can recall off the key, that's just fine the way it is. That only means that whole guilds can't have easy access to certain islands you cant recall to, which is good, because it means more people/boats will be on the ocean. You're doing a great job IPY staff, but the 10 second owner control should only work with alive owners. So the order for tillerman priority should be as follows:

1 (alive) Owner of boat
2 alive person with key
3 alive person
4 Ghosts

(edit: and the reason nobody should be ejected from the boat that is alive *ever* is because they could be being ejected into harms way)

[Stigmas]

ok, there should be a way for a melee fighter to join in on boat fighting. considering the slow skill gain and how hard it is to just make another character for a specific feature. All play styles should be considered and allowed to participate.

[deadbanana0717]

100% on the money.

the sequence of control here seems good too. I think the people on the boat should be able to eject dead people given they have the key. live people... shouldn't be ejected. if you want to kick some one off the boat, kill them first =)


ok, now, aside from dexxers.... back to the topic at hand. nobody should be able to remove people from the boat, nor should anything but ghosts be removed during a drydocking. The alive people on the boat should have control: the problem is that if you steal a boat because you were able to grab the key over the side, and hop on, the ghost may be the owner of the ship and he can easily take you to somewhere that you cant recall and keep you as a prisoner, which is ridiculous. On this same hand it should be imperitave that the boat theif allow the ghost to get off the boat, either by means of a gate or by letting him off on the shore. I don't mind that only the owner of the boat can recall off the key, that's just fine the way it is. That only means that whole guilds can't have easy access to certain islands you cant recall to, which is good, because it means more people/boats will be on the ocean. You're doing a great job IPY staff, but the 10 second owner control should only work with alive owners. So the order for tillerman priority should be as follows:

1 (alive) Owner of boat
2 alive person with key
3 alive person
4 Ghosts

(edit: and the reason nobody should be ejected from the boat that is alive *ever* is because they could be being ejected into harms way)

[JoeBlow]

ok, there should be a way for a melee fighter to join in on boat fighting. considering the slow skill gain and how hard it is to just make another character for a specific feature. All play styles should be considered and allowed to participate.

archery/cannons

[deadbanana0717]

How do cannons work? I thought they allow you to attack a boat and jump on. grab the loot then get off? I think meelee chrs can join in like that, otherwise you might as well cage people up and let a gm fencer rip them appart. (theres no space on a boat, totaly fair) go buy a cannon.



ok, there should be a way for a melee fighter to join in on boat fighting. considering the slow skill gain and how hard it is to just make another character for a specific feature. All play styles should be considered and allowed to participate.

[jammaplaya]

dexies can participate, you can try to board an enemy ship but nothing should be done to make it easy for you, because you would simply **** everyone on board up. and if you cant get on you can still cross heal. what do you expect? a rope to get on? get serious

[g2knee]

Lets not change it too much. People should be able to wrestle for control of a ship. It doesn't matter who has the key, or if someone is dry-docking.

Ghosts, on the other hand, should perhaps not be able to control the ship unless no one else is on board. That way if you die on a boat you aren't screwed.

[Repent]

I don't think that ghosts should have any control and they should also not block dry-docking. The only purpose a ghost would have on a boat is waiting to get ressed or leaving. Perhaps give them the option to walk off the plank (like you do to get on land) and have it take them to the closest landmass or whatever.

I suppose it would make sense to allow a ghost to sail a boat if there is NO other living people on board and they are the owner, but that is the only case where it really makes sense because that would allow people out hunting who accidentally die to monsters to get back somewhere with their boat safely.


I completely agree with Jamma here also another thing is the axis exploit to get onto boats. I had a ship locked up tight.. wasnt there when i recalled off or back on and was nowhere near shore line and he did not have a key. Yet I go to dry dock, and nothing then I reveal and vuala fool on my boat. Ahahaha.

[Populus]

I completely agree with Jamma here also another thing is the axis exploit to get onto boats. I had a ship locked up tight.. wasnt there when i recalled off or back on and was nowhere near shore line and he did not have a key. Yet I go to dry dock, and nothing then I reveal and vuala fool on my boat. Ahahaha.

What.

There are no known exploits to get on boats at the moment.
Most likely someone jumped on your boat when you pulled out the plank.

[Violent Beard]

I really like the idea that the person with the ship key can override commands & that any live person overrides a ghost. Also sounds like a good idea that the ship key isable to be recalled & gated on (both an advantage and a disadvantage - if it gets stolen). And you shouldn't be able to drydock a boat which has any living creature on it.

[MatrondeWinter]

I am against people recalling to ship keys at all. More often than not, this feature is not used to help locate a lost boat, because the owner is safely locked on board and can sail it to safety. This might be different here with the sinking of boats, but in that case, what difference would it make, the boat is un-recoverable. This feature is used for people to get somewhere quickly, usually a farming spot where they can use the boat for safety. The recall to the key ability robs the server of some critical ship-transport that I would like to think would help create player-player interaction on the water.

[Wyrm'gard]

This is not a fully fleshed out system; just a collection of thoughts I had...

Each ship would not only come with a Key but also a Captain's Tricorne hat. A ship would have a Roster with the ships crew listed (essentially Friends and Co-Owners). Whoever wears the Captain's Tricorne hat is Captain of the ship (regardless of being on the Roster or not); they control the Roster and have priority over the tiller man. Captain and Officers who are on the Roster (Owner and Co-Owners) could order anyone to "walk the plank" (eject from ship and marooned on nearest island).

ANYONE with the Key can unlock the planks and unlock the cargo hold; you don't need to be on the Roster or wear the Captain's Tricorne to use the key. The Captain's Tricorne and Key can be appropriated from it's wearer by theft or looting off their corpse.

You would NOT be able to ban anyone from a ship.

The Tiller man would only listen to people on the Roster (why would he listen to just any chump on the ship? He serves the crew!) Ghosts would not be able to control the ship under any circumstance (not even friend, owner, co-owner) If nobody on the Roster is aboard the ship then the tiller man will listen to anyone on-board.

If you do enough damage to the tiller man he will drop a key. So even if the Captain does manage to escape with the Captain's Tricorne and the crew escapes (or is slain) then at least the attacking party could loot the ship and control it... but not fully own it. This also gives incentive for the crew to try and defend it; not just flee.

Whoever has Captain's Tricorne is Captain (thus Owner) of the ship. They can reset the Roster, setup their friends as the crew, dry dock the ship, and have the tiller man issue new keys... it's now sailing under a new flag! While the Key is important; whoever has the Captain's Tricorne hat is master in command of the ship!

[cronk]

i like the spirit of those ideas but tremble in fear of adding so much unknown to a feature like this. sounds too ripe for exploits/loopholes/things to go wrong.

i think the best ways to fix the current abuse is: tiered priorities as have been listed here for who the tillerman will listen to, PLUS a variation on 3 & 5; you can ONLY chuck ghosts off your boat, not live players. i could see abuses of this happening if the owner has the power to boot live players from his boat, whether they be friend or foe.

there's runuo code out there for... chivalry i think... where you can cast a spell and it boots all ghosts out of the area (think it only works at champ spawns). some variation for this where the holder of the key (and only him) can boot ghosts off the boat would be nice. maybe a boot to a moongate or something, instead of nearby dry land?

i also wouldn't mind forcing ghosts to always be in war mode on boats, so you can see them and boot if desired. i have no problems with stealthers stealing boats, but a ghost shouldn't be able to.

[Daeron]

I like option 2 & 5, but option five should only apply to ghosts, If a alive player is on the boat you should not be able to dry dock. This will in my opinion take away some of the more annoying factors or "exploits" that ghosts can do on board a boat, but still allow fighting over boats and stealing boats. You will have to kill or neutralize the crew before you can take command over the boat.

[Deuce]

These:
-Ghosts can only command the ship if there are no live people on board
-Ghosts can be ejected from the ship on drydocking
-Ghosts cannot raise the anchor, unless that ghost is the owner
-Ghosts cannot block the ship's recall spot

Live players can be dealt with. Right now an undetected ghost can stay on your ship and wait until you leave, and sail away, and you can't get rid of them other than a server crash! Since they prevent drydocking, they can just stand on board until their friends with cannons arrive. Standing in the recall spot means you can't get back on, and that ghost can bring the ship to be sunk or dumped in a no-recall area.

Ghosts are the only real problem.

[Krypt]

No ghost control period. If you're chasing a boat with cannons, you kill the people on board, and dieing is a benefit to them almost since all they have to worry about then is evading you. If you die on your boat, you should have to bring another boat to help, or help stuck it. Otherwise everyone would just make an extra ghost char to control their boats for them since there is no risk of losing a key.

[Krypt]

1. No ghosts can control ship including owner.
2. Works for me.
3. No way.
4. Fine
5. Ghosts only.

[Tomed]

Some ideas (none final yet):

Ghosts cannot control ship.
Person with the key overrides all commands.
Person with the key can eject players from boats.
Players are automatically ejected from the boat when the boat is drydocked.



If you add this stuff then there needs to be other ways to steal ships. Definitely put the open recall feature in, allow people to telekinesis the hold, force people to unlock their ship to get on, and don't allow people to kick others off their boats when they're being attacked.

[MatrondeWinter]

I agree with Tomed, nobody should be kicking live players off their boat, and people should be forced to unlock the hatch to get on, or at least let anyone get on the hatch when it is down.

[Deuce]

Miscellaneous boat issue:

Sea monster corpses should be made passable by boats, as serpents have an annoying tendency to get stuck on your deck. This can block movement of the ship. Earlier today I had one jammed on the rear-left corner and I couldn't turn, move forward/back, or left. The only available movement was sliding right until the corpse decayed!

[Seneschal]

Miscellaneous boat issue:

Sea monster corpses should be made passable by boats, as serpents have an annoying tendency to get stuck on your deck. This can block movement of the ship. Earlier today I had one jammed on the rear-left corner and I couldn't turn, move forward/back, or left. The only available movement was sliding right until the corpse decayed!

That happens in RL too!

[Disastorm]

I think the best and only thing you really have to do is just make it so you can drydock with ghosts on board, and also give ship owner priority over commands (like osi did at some point). That fixes any possible problems that may arise, if someone dies on a boat they can still control the boat and would be a much better alternative to Krypts idea since Krypt is just trying to cause more griefing rather than less griefing (notice how he said even ship owner ghosts should not be able to control ships, he obviously plans on going aroudn killing ship owners and stranding them in their boat)

The only problem with this is obviously the ghost stealing the ship when the guy gets off to drydock it. However, a player can easily fix this with a second account he can get his own ghost to get on the ship and spam drop anchor then make his main guy leave the ship and drydock it, and if that seems like a less than desired solution, you can also make it so a ship owner can drydock the boat while he himself is on it, but also has to be within a certain number of tiles from land so he gets ejected there.

[MatrondeWinter]

I think they should have to get off the boat (and unlock the plank to do so), in order to dry dock it. The same thing with getting onboard, the keyholder should not be able to magically get on while nobody else can when the plank is down and locked. With that being said, the ability to dock a boat with a ghost on it and the tillerman ignoring any commands of a ghost when a live person is present and for up to 10 seconds afterwards would solve the rest of the problems.

This way, living people can raid boats, pirates cannot use ghosts to spam drop anchor while their warship sails in, stranded ghosts can still sail their boat back to shore, and the keyholder can drydock their boat even with a ghost on board (for 10 seconds after they give the drop anchor command while the ghost command is ignored when they get off).


\

[Deuce]

That happens in RL too!

Upon further investigation, any object seems to block a ship. After a battle with a sea serpent, the water gets littered with arrows, making things even worse! I have to pick up every single arrow to get moving again. One of the serpents almost got away!

[Quantum]

I like the idea of "walk the plank". Maybe it ejects players to their last land location, nearest landmass, or maybe it just moves them onto the plank, so you can easily box and kill them. Ghosts should be able to control boats if there's no living players. If someone has the key, the tillerman should ONLY listen to them, not simply have their commands override everyone else's. If you want someone else to control the boat... give them the key.

Also... ghosts can't control the boat if someone with the key (do you need the key to dock the boat?) is still on-screen.