Weapon Special Hits

[Jack Straw]

This has come up in multiple threads, so I figure we should actually address it.

There are many who will get up in arms over special hits:
- "It isn't era accurate"
- "Chain stun from spears is OP"
- OMG CONC BLOWS WTF?

The fact of the matter is that weapon special hits made dexxers infinitely more viable. (note: I don't think that dexxers aren't option right now at all.) I think they're very much so underused in GvG when they shouldn't be. Be that as it may, I think they would look more attractive to serious PvP groups if they had the ability to stun their opponent for two seconds or hit at 150% damage with their war hammer or drop their opponents mana IN HALF.

Basically I want to center the discussion on this in a thread devoted to it and not in a thread devoted to 10 other things.

Personally, I'm not sure if I want them or not. I'm swaying towards "no" though.

[Diz]

Stuns, procs, special wep hits...

...all very badass, help spice up PvP and give different viable templates and playstyles in various combat systems......

.....it all boils down to implementation and balance. That's the hitch, it seems to be a big hitch.

I think this Wep Specials concept........ is really about spicing up all templates. Magery has tons of spells underutilized or simply broken. Dexxers have tons of weapons that are just, literally, vendor trash.

It appears to me that Wep Specials would be good if they were implemented well and with other stuff like some Magery spell tweaks. Why not, if they're balanced and don't just lead to stunlocking mages or para blow spamming fencers.

Lets see where this goes, I'm definitely interested, not convinced yet though.

[Dewderonomy]

Special moves. These need to be in. There was a reason it was put in, and why warriors (pure dexxers) don't exist in large groups, if at all, on many servers these days (save dedicated role-play servers). They provide additional template options that open doors to self-balancing the sync/mage issues.

Keep them simple:
-Spears and short spears para blow for 3 seconds.
-Halberds, bardiches and axes concussion blow, which had done several different things since its inception, including damaging mana, penalyzing Int temporarily (also damaging mana), and causing extra damage (as per AoS).
-War hammers dealing crushing blows, which was ~150% damage.

Then it's a matter of determining how they are to be implemented. AoS made them tactical and controllable instead of random, relying on mana; other shards have done similar things in the past. However, med warriors can make some pretty mean templates if it's based solely on mana.

The following groups are the ones I think would be best, though feel free to mix-and-match:

a) Mana-based, Cooldown. Each special move costs 20ish mana with a 10-20 second cooldown. This means, even if the mana's available, it can't be chained by one person.

b) Stamina-based, Cooldown. Make it based on stamina. Warriors need swing speed, and you can't chug a refresh without disarming. Not to mention you can't exactly carry an infinite amount of refreshes. Plus, there's still the 10-20 second cooldown to avoid any chaining. Make it cost stamina much in the same way Stun Punch and Disarm do, including stamina penalties for missing.

c) Skill-based, Random. Make it random again, but make it based more on the skills available, including Tactics, Anatomy and Arms Lore. The more points in these skills, the more likely it will set off. Maybe place a 3- or 5-second cooldown to prevent the possibility of chaining para blows, but make it random nonetheless.

These options obviously don't include Stun/Disarm as they are toggle-able, as I think the first two in the list should be (make it Primary Ability/Disarm).

Stun would be 3-seconds as the para blow without the cooldown. I've seen this work just fine (misses and hits suck stamina dry, and chaining them isn't really a practical option). Disarm shouldn't have a rearm penalty. It made stealing less art and more gimp and mages putting 80 points in Arms Lore with some refreshes became untouchable, only having to use the ability once every 10 seconds. If there is a cooldown, it shouldn't be more than 10 seconds.

As far as dexxers (pure warriors) being a viable option in PvP, it's only when the bulk of the group is comprised of mages. Typically, it'd be one warrior harassing a mage and keeping them moving and disrupted while the rest do the heavy hauling. To get a feel for that uselessness, get a spell book, put only some healing spells in it, and go play for 6 months in a group. See how fun PvP is then.

[SoulStealer A.O]

Let's leave the UO:R PvP mechanics to the UO:R type servers.

[Dewderonomy]

Why not leave the king systems and pirates to RP servers, then, if our entire premise for this shard is to stay the same as it was 10 years ago? Can we also restrict all the neat Razor features to make it more in line with it was in '99? What about putting horses back in?

There's a reason even T2A, a very popular pre-UO:R server that remains "truly era accurate", has bullshit rares and instanced minigames and tournies that have no place in or resemblance to a '99 shard: the playerbase is bored.

Also why its membership is declining...

[Remixninja]

Let's leave the UO:R PvP mechanics to the UO:R type servers.

seconded.

special hits might have a place, but not in t2a pvp imo.

There are other ways to make melee better without totally tipping the scales

[MethodManX]

Lets make all weapons viable for different reasons instead of adding special blows. Perhaps a bump to low level magery spells for a combination of both for warriors? So many unused low level (1-3) spells that could be reworked.

[Dewderonomy]

Guess we can impose melee accuracy/evasion penalties based on Dexterity. <60 Dexterity imposes penalties, so a mage with 25ish Dex might get hit, say, 35% more often? That makes melee better without putting in special moves.

Could put Lethal Poison in with Poisoning through melee attacks, though chugging 5+ greater cures to stop 20 damage a tick will obviously bring up problems.

On a shard that isn't "era-accurate" in the first place, according to Az, how do you propose to balance melee and make it a viable skill in PvP? I'm interested to know...

[Diz]

Lets make all weapons viable for different reasons instead of adding special blows. Perhaps a bump to low level magery spells for a combination of both for warriors? So many unused low level (1-3) spells that could be reworked.

4reel

[Dewderonomy]

How do you make the weapons "different"? There's still going to be poisoned katanas for disrupts, or krysses/warforks for the fencer. Quarter staves for the macer.

Are broadswords going to deal an average of 20 more damage per hit, suddenly? What about scimitars and cutlasses? How are they going to be sweetened to make them more viable? Or two-handers, what about them? Make them more powerful, more accurate? And won't that only strengthen the tank, not address the warrior?

I understand that you want to find other methods than special moves, but we need actual examples. Don't need numbers, but gotta' have more than "let's make weapons more useful", being that that's the whole point of the thread.

[Gruumsh]

I think that the special hits is a good way to balance melee vs magic. Especially if there is heal throught poison, melee need special hits. Or mage need not to be able to heal throught poison or press a button to use a cure potion. ( Need to double click. ) But if all of this get too complicated, let Az decide and we will see what's up with the balance later. Maybe he should make magery x5 harder to skill up.

[Dewderonomy]

Time is never an issue. There's macroing, no cost to play, and no value to the pixels. All time does is keep people from actually playing the game.

[Pud.S]

special hits might have a place, but not in t2a pvp

You have been affected by Cheap Shot
Your casting has been interrupted
You cannot move
You have been affected by Kidney Punch
Your casting has been interrupted
You cannot move

[Oxandrolone]

A mage stood no chance against a well equiped dexxer one on one on IPY. Special hits are not necessary. Adding a random element cheapens the PvP, especially one as devastating as a stun or a 60 damage war hammer swipe.

Although it may be nice to make more weapons then the five already in use more viable, I think the amount of tweaking and testing required for that would push the launch back much further then we'd want it to.

[Iced Earth]

If mages can use 'Instant Death Special Attack' by pushing 4 buttons, then I don't see why all the opposition to warriors being able to stop someone from moving for 3 seconds.

[Dewderonomy]

*Holds nose for nasal effect*
"Erm.. two-one-drop! Okay, good job, you guys... Load up... two-one-drop! Okay, good. Load up..."

...Since we're whinging and all...

[Dewderonomy]

A mage stood no chance against a well equiped dexxer one on one on IPY.
Huh, that's interesting. "No chance", huh? I didn't realize warriors had a 100% chance to-hit with "no chance" of glancing hits from high end weapons versus clothed mages for 2-3 damage.

Guess I don't remember '99, or UO at all for that matter, as well as I thought I did. Go figure.

[Oxandrolone]

Huh, that's interesting. "No chance", huh? I didn't realize warriors had a 100% chance to-hit with "no chance" of glancing hits from high end weapons versus clothed mages for 2-3 damage.

Guess I don't remember '99, or UO at all for that matter, as well as I thought I did. Go figure.


A few guys perfected the dexxer template on IPY. It was expensive as all hell but they literally had a near 100% success rate one on one against mages in the field. I personally did not play one but I was guilded with one and often fought against at least one other.

Also, with normalized weapon damage it should be even easier for dexxers this time around.

[Dewderonomy]

It was expensive as all hell but they literally had a near 100% success rate one on one against mages in the field.
I'm sorry, are we talking about WoW or UO?

Oh, I get it now: get vanquishing weapons, teleport rings, magic reflect items, and about another 5k-10k worth of gear in order to compete with someone carrying maybe 800 gold worth of gear. I've heard that one before.

And let me guess: they had Magery too? /facepalm

[Pud.S]

If mages can use 'Instant Death Special Attack' by pushing 4 buttons, then I don't see why all the opposition to warriors being able to stop someone from moving for 3 seconds.

And Archers & Stealth Bombermen can use 'Instant Death Special Attack' by pushing 2 buttons

'Warriors' are already special because blades don't run out of bullets.

[Oxandrolone]

They carried a Vanq weapon with DP, hundreds of potions, probably 50 trapped pouches. It was expensive but they raped. There were no teleport rings or magic reflect items on IPY.

One death probably cost them like 5 deaths of a well equipped mage.

You've got no idea what your talking about and the solution to your proposed problem is to cheapen the PvP with proc skills. That takes out so much of the talent UO required that made it so fucking awesome.

You guys all keep speaking like syncing combos was something easy. It's not easy. It's easier to heal through a synced dump then it is to actually land a well synced dump. There was only one group of guys who would sync to the point that you could not heal through it.... and many had the suspicion they weren't playing fair.

[Dewderonomy]

They carried a Vanq weapon with DP, hundreds of potions, probably 50 trapped pouches. It was expensive but they raped. There were no teleport rings or magic reflect items on IPY.

One death probably cost them like 5 deaths of a well equipped mage.
...Okay, thanks for supporting special hits and diversity in PvP by citing people with absolutely no life as the only people who have a chance playing a warrior post-Razor/Syncs. If I wanted to grind for a week to enjoy an hour's worth of the actual game, I'd pick up any one of countless Korean MMOs that are free-to-play.



You've got no idea what your talking about and the solution to your proposed problem is to cheapen the PvP with proc skills. That takes out so much of the talent UO required that made it so fucking awesome.
Wait, hold up - talent? Talent, you say? I think you mean "one caller and 5 glorified bots".


And Archers & Stealth Bombermen can use 'Instant Death Special Attack' by pushing 2 buttons

'Warriors' are already special because blades don't run out of bullets.
You.. cited archers who use.. bolts. Which is ammunition. Like bullets...

And yeah, I remember the stealth archer "sync". I've been attacked by it 2, maybe 3 times that I can remember; survived each time. Why?

Because you can miss. And they did. It was funny.

I also like the "Stealth Bomberman" idea, since you actually can't hide while a bomb ticks. So again, as I mentioned in a post already, unless you want to try ganking someone with Stealth and then pray to God Almighty that you roll high for the remainder of the fight, warriors are pretty much SOL in every capacity.

Except when they have 15k worth of gear and Magery in their template. I can see the balance inherent in the system...

[Pud.S]

Ox what you said is true

Dewder you should lighten up simply because there is no grinding in this game.

I don't want to hear that kind of talk; everything about building a character is fun.

Whatever MMO jaded you hard, we can fix it with a spoonful of IPY

[Dewderonomy]

Nothing about building a character in a game 8 times is fun. I'm sorry that repeating the same exact thing over and over again fulfills you, but I like playing sandbox MMOs to explore their potential, not remake the same characters ad nauseam.

[Oxandrolone]

A well timed sync was a talent that not everyone had. Some guilds couldn't do it for the life of them and some guilds were great at it. It came down to the talent that particular guild had for it. It took more then a caller and bots.. the bots had to be competent and the caller had to know when and how to call targets. It wasn't as easy as everyone is making it out to seem. Without a good group dynamic it just didn't work.

If you played IPY I could give examples of who could and couldn't sync well and what a drastic difference it made.

One other thing no one is mentioning. If you take out syncing - if it becomes impossible to land large amounts of damage over very short time periods - then it becomes impossible to kill someone. Not even improbable. Impossible. UO PvP is about landing enough damage in a small enough time to prevent someone from healing it. You literally will never ever ever kill a cross healing group of mages if you don't have syncing.

[Dewderonomy]

How long have you even been playing UO, Ox? You're making some pretty outlandish claims.

"Impossible" to kill someone without syncs? Do I even need to address that? And you can kill cross-healing mages - if you attack them with weapons that actually do something and doesn't require magic or 15k weapons that will break every battle thanks to poisoning.

PS: As to "taking syncs out", this is about "adding special weapon hits in". Different thread, although this one was born from the other as a means to address syncs, not take them out.

[Pud.S]

Right again Ox

Dewder, sorry if you wore UO out too much for you, but the medi warriors Ox is talking about were monsters, and they very well could have funded their medis by a crafting char or something other than killing shit meaninglessly.

In this sandbox, if you want to be a monster, you pack a monster lunch.

[Oxandrolone]

I haven't played UO since I believe 2004. The day before Az put up the infamous eulogy to IPY. I quit OSI the day they took out precasting in 1999. I searched every month, played dozens of player run shards trying to find a semblance to the PvP system I knew better then any subject I had ever known. Only two shards came close. IPY was far far superior to the first that did it and I decided my UO career was over when Az took it down.

I'm speaking about IPY 1 PvP, which you clearly had no experience with. Otherwise you would remember running into some of these monster warriors packing their monster lunches. It's a raping like no mage could ever dish out. And they don't run out of mana. Hell I think some of em even would repoison their weapon mid battle.

[Dewderonomy]

And yet in all these screenshots, I don't see 'em.

Of all the players, only mages are talking about these "legendary warriors" who fielded their banks in battle to maybe milk some cheap reagents out of a mage or two.

Of all the players, none of them have been dexxers speaking of themselves; just mages glorifying warriors that may as well not even exist.

Monsters? How ironic, because these "dexxers" you talk so highly about sound like Big Foot - and are as "real" as it in my mind.

[Diz]

Theres someone already in this thread [a dexxer] who would single handedly rape any past present or future UO tank mage in a 1 vs 1 field fight, Dewd...

[Oxandrolone]

Oh and I don't want to read the 30 pages of people trying to justify removing sync-dumping.

It comes down to the exact same issue that everyone has ALWAYS had with UO - making a dexxer and a tank mage have equal viability.

What I'm saying is that we don't have to have that conversation anymore - it happened on IPY.

[Dewderonomy]

I haven't played UO since I believe 2004. The day before Az put up the infamous eulogy to IPY. I quit OSI the day they took out precasting in 1999. I searched every month, played dozens of player run shards trying to find a semblance to the PvP system I knew better then any subject I had ever known. Only two shards came close. IPY was far far superior to the first that did it and I decided my UO career was over when Az took it down.

I'm speaking about IPY 1 PvP, which you clearly had no experience with. Otherwise you would remember running into some of these monster warriors packing their monster lunches. It's a raping like no mage could ever dish out. And they don't run out of mana. Hell I think some of em even would repoison their weapon mid battle.
So you gave up when precasting fell out? Didn't even bother to adapt, huh? Wow.

And for the record, poisoned weapons break. Fast. If they didn't, that was an imbalance that should have been addressed (and was on OSI).

[Pud.S]

tbqh they were already paladins.

I ran and left them alone.

[Oxandrolone]

I spoke to one of them last week to tell him IPY was opening back up.

The other I am thinking of, as Diz said, has already posted in this thread. I bet I can find a SS of him in Puds SS extravaganza. Gimme a minute!


Wtf all the clickable links are gone from the thread so I won't be finding the screenshots unfortunately.

[Oxandrolone]

So you gave up when precasting fell out? Didn't even bother to adapt, huh? Wow.

And for the record, poisoned weapons break. Fast. If they didn't, that was an imbalance that should have been addressed (and was on OSI).

I saw the progression UO was taking as soon as precasting was taken out. And it was taken out because of all the whiney babies who wanted to play warriors but learned its a fuck load harder then playing a tank mage.

Shortly there after special hits were added and then Trammel came into the picture. I was right on the progression, I just caught it a lot earlier then a lot of guys.

[Dewderonomy]

Theres someone already in this thread [a dexxer] who would single handedly rape any past present or future UO tank mage in a 1 vs 1 field fight, Dewd...
Can't compare 1v1 in GvG discussions. 1v1s have to account for factors that cannot be balanced by programming, particularly environment, what weapons/potions are allowed and how many, etc.

Balance has to be made with the game's fundamental focus in mind: massively multiplayer online game. Massively multiplayer. Not d00lz. You cannot truly balance those, at least not easily.

[Pud.S]

Oh we got balance and style baby

[Dewderonomy]

I saw the progression UO was taking as soon as precasting was taken out. And it was taken out because of all the whiney babies who wanted to play warriors but learned its a fuck load harder then playing a tank mage.

Shortly there after special hits were added and then Trammel came into the picture. I was right on the progression, I just caught it a lot earlier then a lot of guys.
I played since 1998. UO sucked.

I said it.

The only reason it was remotely fun was because the whole concept of MMOs were still new and fun, and I was playing with friends from middle school. I'm not naive enough to think the game was immaculate because I can't see the forest for the trees.

Or because I see warriors as "whiney babies". Yikes, really?

[Remixninja]

Theres someone already in this thread [a dexxer] who would single handedly rape any past present or future UO tank mage in a 1 vs 1 field fight, Dewd...

I must agree here. A skilled dexer is such a pain in the ass... And one who is well equipped is nearly impossible to take down if he's got enough pots.

gg

*edit after reading above post*

Dexers in group combat are just as viable as mages if not a vital part of a good well-rounded pvp squad

[Pud.S]

MMX - give us some of your incite - Oh great blue one

[Diz]

Can't compare 1v1 in GvG discussions.

I'm not comparing. You insinuated that people are bullshitting about godlike dexxers. These dexxers we speak of, if suited correctly, rolling with other good players who know how to heal properly, will absolutely steamroll another group or force them to recall simply because the dexxer is that overpowering. Even in say, 3v3... All the way up to 6v6...

The issue most people take is that a mage, being more resourceful by design of the skillset, is capable of establishing as much combat utility with just 50 regs and a single weapon, as a dexxer who is suited to the nines. If more mages rolled with 80 potions, they'd die less. Dexxers are just more gear based, which makes perfect sense - they use equipment and not mental pew-pew lazers...

[Dewderonomy]

So the dexxer can take 6 explosion/energy bolt combos? I didn't think that was possible (and rightfully so).

[Diz]

Can a mage take 6 explosion/energy bolt combos?

Nobody can (alone or with any amount of items).

The dexxer would have to be chugging and staying away from the dumpers while getting healed by mates on-the-fly, just like a mage would be doing the exact same thing in the exact same way. This issue of gigantic syncs is overarching, it is not limited to dexxers.

[Pud.S]

IPY PVP, Bless it.

[Oxandrolone]

MMX - give us some of your incite - Oh great blue one

I'm pretty sure all he gives are war fork enemas.

[Dewderonomy]

Can a mage take 6 explosion/energy bolt combos?

Nobody can (alone or with any amount of items).

The dexxer would have to be chugging and staying away from the dumpers while getting healed by mates on-the-fly, just like a mage would be doing the exact same thing in the exact same way. This issue of gigantic syncs is overarching, it is not limited to dexxers.
No, but it is limited to mages. Dexxers cannot do that, and dexxers obviously aren't as all-powerful as you're suggesting. They do not "steam roll". I'm sure for every time a warrior rolled well one night, he rolled equally as poorly three other times that cost him all that awesome gear.

There is no such thing as a perfect dexxer, not while their best is still only 50/50 accuracy.

[Diz]

RETIRED WAR FORK

[Oxandrolone]

It always sucked to be the guy that the dexxer got on. You spent the entire fight chugging and healing. 50% accuracy doesn't matter when he swings less then every second. The dexxer HAD to be your first dump target, there was no choice in the matter.. it could literally make or break the skirmish.

All this talk has really made me want to play UO again god damnit.

[Pud.S]

I'm pretty sure all he gives are war fork enemas.

I can feel the pain, you're even on the edge of your seat, trying to get your char to take his next step more quickly.

That shit made me laugh hard

[Dewderonomy]

...less than a second? You all might be playing by some different (but awesome) rules here, but I do believe the maximum swing speed is 1.5-2.0 seconds, at full stamina with a dagger.

[Oxandrolone]

...less than a second? You all might be playing by some different (but awesome) rules here, but I do believe the maximum swing speed is 1.5-2.0 seconds, at full stamina with a dagger.

I don't remember the numbers, but it was fast enough to continually interrupt greater heal, a fourth circle spell.. which maybe took 1 to 1.5 seconds to cast?

[Pud.S]

Yeah as advertised, pvp on performance enhanced drugs

[Dewderonomy]

I don't remember the numbers, but it was fast enough to continually interrupt greater heal, a fourth circle spell.. which maybe took 1 to 1.5 seconds to cast?
Assuming they constantly hit you and when, that makes sense being that there is a casting delay to recast. If you keep spamming it, they can keep hitting you during the cast cycle instead of during the recast delay.

[Bobby Digital]

A few guys perfected the dexxer template on IPY. It was expensive as all hell but they literally had a near 100% success rate one on one against mages in the field. I personally did not play one but I was guilded with one and often fought against at least one other.

Also, with normalized weapon damage it should be even easier for dexxers this time around.

He is right. MethodManX was pretty much unbeatable 1v1. He also happened to be the most well equiped player on the shard day in day out.

[Dewderonomy]

I'm sure he is. But balancing an MMO for 1v1 is like balancing Super Mario assuming 324 other players can help you stomp koopas on the same level. The game is an MMO - we have to address it as such.

Or on a more straightforward note: duels don't take towns.

[Jay]

Special hits were fun in UO:R, I just see them throwing balance off in a T2A server, so I went with the third option.

[Dewderonomy]

T2A server

Since the very beginning, I’ve stated very clearly that our intentions are to revisit the second Ultima Online expansion – UO:Renaissance. Not just revisit it, but really even redo it.

Quoted from here (http://azaroth.org/2010/11/22/10-in-10-portals/).

That said, I don't think they'd be out of place.

[Jay]

The fact still stands that the pvp system as a whole are pre UO:R mechanics. If you were to implement special hits and not make other changes to the system that came with UO:R you would have to spend a long long time testing it to make sure it's balanced.

[Dewderonomy]

Maybe, maybe not. We have 10 years of experience to look at to help with balance. It's not like we're inventing the wheel for the first time; we know how things worked, how they didn't, and what worked best.

Either way, we already know the system isn't balanced, so it can't hurt to move forward.

[skimmo]

Usually I'm open to ideas but this one is crazy. Last thing we need are more dumbasses running around in storebought chainmail chugging pots and smashing mages' faces.

[abm]

Usually I'm open to ideas but this one is crazy. Last thing we need are more dumbasses running around in storebought chainmail chugging pots and smashing mages' faces.

But but but... what else will I do?

[Woodlife]

Usually I'm open to ideas but this one is crazy. Last thing we need are more smartasses running around in storebought leather smoking pot and mages smash faced.

Quote Fixed :D

[Thayn]

I would be in favor of weapon specials, on demand, based on the following criteria:

1) They require more than just a weapon skill and tactics to use. They should require other supporting skills that make the skill choices matter. For example (Way out there example, not definitive), Fencing/Tactic/Hiding/Stealth for a concussion attack. The slightly convoluted reasoning behind that is, in order to strike someone in such a way that they wouldn't see it coming, you must know how to conceal your movements and weapons.

2) Each special should drain Stamina, not mana. This is to act as a governor that determines how often they can be used, add a consequence that pertains to melee (Less stamina, slower swings), will be offset by protective capabilities (Plate has a dex penalty), and gives those who wish to combine magic and melee a tough decision if they wish to benefit from the specials.

2A) If 2 is enacted, there needs to be a timer on stamina pots.. Though I'd argue there should be one anyway (Or all pots, really - But that's a completely different discussion), but moreso if this comes to pass.

3) The effects should be limited to snares, stat penalties, or slightly increased damage (Or even some amount of AoE for PvE situations), with diminishing returns. No one should be shut down irreversibly. Hindered, yes, but not completely locked down.

Under those conditions, I could see weapon specials as being something that could potentially add a lot of variety to dull auto-attacks that would make melee players feel more engaged.

[Dewderonomy]

1) Pre-AoS, this was determined by Anatomy. Higher Anatomy, more likely that a special would land, with a minimum of 70 (maybe 80?) to even drop specials to begin with. I don't think requiring too many more skills is fair, being that a mage only needs 4 skills (not every mage uses a weapon skill/wrestling) and a warrior already needs 5. We want to see more diversity, not less.

Post-AoS, other skills were included to determine cost of attack. I liked this idea. It meant if you had the bare minimum to pull off special moves (like a tank), than you were paying more per special move, but dedicated warriors could use them more cheaply. I think implementing a system like this, particularly with Stamina cost instead of Mana, will go a long way to balancing it.

2) I agree on Stamina, although I'm accustomed to Mana. Warriors will still need mana (Int) if they don't want to be faceplanted by a single Mind Blast. As far as limiting stamina potions, I'm not particular to either option, but limiting it would actually hurt mages overall, not warriors. I suggest, then, that we stick with the limit already in place: how many you can carry to begin with.

3) I think the original three - concussion, paralyze, and crushing blow - should be the special hits. I would suggest leaving out the other AoS-style special moves since balancing them is a serious hassle, and actually flips the mage vs warrior balance argument on its ass (mages ended up sucking pretty bad years after AoS, although that might be more because of arties and resists on armor than anything else).

[Gruumsh]

I want Axe to be affected by lumberjacking ( Which is a freaking pain to level anyway ).

[Remixninja]

I want sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their foreheads

:)

[Dewderonomy]

I want Axe to be affected by lumberjacking ( Which is a freaking pain to level anyway ).
I've never been an axer, but I never saw the issue with 20% damage increase at GM Lumberjacking without access to special moves while using a two-handed weapon. It seemed like a fair trade-off to me.

[Gruumsh]

It is a fair trade. And i want sharks with laser beams too, as a mount and i want them amphibian too.

[Dewderonomy]

War sharks for factions. Anyone?

[Dodger]

Usually I'm open to ideas but this one is crazy. Last thing we need are more dumbasses running around in storebought chainmail chugging pots and smashing mages' faces.


as if. People need to quit pretending mages are weak and need a buff while dexxers are overpowered. It is exactly the opposite.

[Dewderonomy]

In hindsight, the whole "mages are weaker than vanq dexxers" and "mages are harder to play than click-and-stick" is the only era-accurate concept alive today, a full decade later. Go figure.

[Remixninja]

as if. People need to quit pretending mages are weak and need a buff while dexxers are overpowered. It is exactly the opposite.

nobody is pretending that mages are weak are weak and need a buff, but I'm tired of shitty dexxers pretend dexers are weak.
A fully geared dexer is a formidable opponent, especially one who knows how to fight a mage.

[Brogina]

nobody is pretending that mages are weak are weak and need a buff, but I'm tired of shitty dexxers pretend dexers are weak.
A fully geared dexer is a formidable opponent, especially one who knows how to fight a mage.

Dyslexics untie!

[Dewderonomy]

nobody is pretending that mages are weak are weak and need a buff, but I'm tired of shitty dexxers pretend dexers are weak.
A fully geared dexer is a formidable opponent, especially one who knows how to fight a mage.
The balance gap between a fully geared dexxer and a fully geared mage is astronomical, though, not to mention that example only applies to 1v1, maybe 2v2, at most. 3+v3+ the game changes dramatically.

[Remixninja]

I've pvped on every level in uo, I know how it is during late game. The game changes when you have coordinated groups sync dumping each other, but have you ever seen tactical use of melee in group pvp? It can seriously disrupt a group having a few skilled meleers wreaking havoc while dumps are going on. I've been involved in multiple large scale group battles with meelers doing ridiculous dmg and disrupting syncs and totally tipping the scales.

[Dewderonomy]

You're talking about 5v5, maybe larger, and you're emphasizing the sync dumps in conjunction with dexxing. The dexxers draw attention, maybe keep the other mages disoriented and at bay, while the mages sync the scattering enemies.

That only supports the issue that warriors are disadvantageous, the point being that even in coordinated groups, their entire purpose is harassment. They are expected to chase and deal some damage, but not to land the killing blow. It's the mages that get that honor.

[Jack]

Dexxers are functional at every level, it just so happens that there will be more newb dexxers than newb mages, for obvious reasons.

They won't get as many killing blows because they are not capable of syncing. Mages don't get killing blows either they share them :D

[Dewderonomy]

If by "functional" you mean as "gnats and bait".

[Jack]

If by gnat you mean some kind of mutant gnat that instead of bothering you, can kill you in 10 seconds unless you run... I think we are agreed

Do you play dexxers? Medwarriors? What?

[Dewderonomy]

Three to five continuous, constant hits, sure. At 50/50 accuracy, we aren't agreed.

I've played a wrestler-warrior since special moves came out. Unlike some of the other posters on the forum, I didn't give up when pre-cast was dropped.

[uniqueuser]

I've played a wrestler-warrior since special moves came out.Your post-AoS experiences don't apply to this discussion.

[Dewderonomy]

You mean 2000? Thank you, come again.

[Jay]

I've always loved a bash as a dexer as well. To me the most successful time as a dexer was just before mages could med through leather... Once mages could med through leather dexers became kinda shitty IMO. Then special hits put them back into action, but I still didn't enjoy them as much as I did pre mages medding through leather.

[Jack]

Special moves are UOR stuff... along with lumberjacking, poisoning for poison spell, inscription effects, etc.

Can't remember when the med change thing happened (which Jay alluded to).

[Dewderonomy]

I think around the time Stealth came out, but I don't remember that far back.

[Jay]

I think the med change was also UO:R tbh... I remember that being the balancing issue to counter the fact that dexers now got special hits.

Could be wrong...
Probably am wrong...

[Jack]

Actually, having checked UOSA's wiki, (they are going for era accuracy in early T2A and I'm sure they checked all the old patch notes and stuff)... meditate is slowed depending on your AR and then drastically slowed by metal armours.


http://wiki.***********.com/index.php?title=Meditation

[Dewderonomy]

I forgot about that. I don't remember people running around UOSA with more than leather on, though, if that.

[uniqueuser]

You mean 2000? Thank you, come again.I laugh at the prospect of a dexxer who spent 100 skill points just so he could unequip his weapon every 10 seconds to flail his fists at his opponent until he landed a stun punch, the duration of which was half-over before he was even able to re-arm and start swinging again.

[Dewderonomy]

I never lost a duel because of it.

Maybe if you thought outside the box you'd see the strategic value of it. The fact you laugh at it is the exact reason people lost to it: they weren't expecting it.

Oh, and disarm. I can't tell you how many warriors I killed with impunity because they didn't realize their weapon was disarmed.

But since the depth of your UO tactics involves code and algorithms matched with syncing, I don't expect you to relate to being involved with the game outside of crunching numbers.

[Jay]

Actually, having checked UOSA's wiki, (they are going for era accuracy in early T2A and I'm sure they checked all the old patch notes and stuff)... meditate is slowed depending on your AR and then drastically slowed by metal armours.


http://wiki.***********.com/index.php?title=Meditation

Passive mana regen is slowed even with leather armour on, and active mana regen is basically your passive regen x 2.

The fastest passive mana regen is 1 mana/second and only applies when wearing cloth or nothing.

this is from UOSA Wiki.

Passive meditation

Passive meditation kicks in when your mana level drops below maximum. The automatic process of gaining back lost mana is called passive meditation. You do not have to do anything to let this happen. The limits of passive meditation are as follows: The slowest possible passive regeneration speed of 1 mana point regained every 7 seconds applies to characters dressed in full plate armor or characters with 0 intelligence and 0 meditation skill. The highest possible passive regeneration speed of 1 mana point regained every second applies to characters dressed in cloth (or nothing) with 100 intelligence and 100 meditation skill. Between those minimum and maximum rate a gliding scale is used to determine the regeneration rate depending on armor, intelligence and meditation skill.

[uniqueuser]

I never lost a duel because of it.The notion of a dexxer "dueling" is laughable, too.

Maybe if you thought outside the box you'd see the strategic value of it.Stun punch suited but one template, a mage with healing and anatomy.

I can't tell you how many warriors I killed with impunity because they didn't realize their weapon was disarmed.Apparently, neither did you!

I don't know which is funnier, the fact that you unequipped your own weapon just to even attempt to disarm theirs or that you blew another 100 points on Arms Lore to use a wrestling move that was viable only in conjunction with Stealing.

[Dewderonomy]

It worked, and I killed plenty of people. Disarm lasted a solid 5 seconds and was silent. And I only needed 80 Arms Lore to pull it off. Like I said, I never lost a duel because of it, and as a merc', I made about 500K profit on that character.

Just because the only thing you know is cookie-cutter templates doesn't mean other systems don't work. Expand your mind.

[Jay]

Expand your mind.

Yeah! Let's get some acid!

[Jack]

It worked, and I killed plenty of people. Disarm lasted a solid 5 seconds and was silent. And I only needed 80 Arms Lore to pull it off. Like I said, I never lost a duel because of it, and as a merc', I made about 500K profit on that character.

Just because the only thing you know is cookie-cutter templates doesn't mean other systems don't work. Expand your mind.



You had wrestling and no magery? :/

[Dewderonomy]

Yep. Mind-boggling, huh?

[Jack]

We'll call it that :P

[Dewderonomy]

I don't get it. If it worked and it was fun, how is that even remotely open to criticism? Is that what this game has come down to? Get Magery or GTFO? Either because it's the only option or the only player-acceptable option?

This does not bode well.

PS: 11-11.

[Jack]

Nah just buggin. I never tried any of the wrestling shit (or can't remember if i did), though I never really noticed a problem against wrestling stunners either. Is it true disarm lasted 5 sec?

I mostly used a fencer hybrid during this period.

[Brogina]

Deuteronomy;

From what ive heard the best 1vs1 pvper on ipy1 was a pure dexxer.

[uniqueuser]

Disarm lasted a solid 5 secondsNo, that wasn't so until AoS. Christ, you can't even get your eras straight. From the time wrestling moves were implemented (we're talking about back in 2000, remember?) until then, it was possible to re-equip immediately after being disarmed.


And I only needed 80 Arms Lore to pull it off.At the bare minimum chance of success.


Just because the only thing you know is cookie-cutter templates doesn't mean other systems don't work.Sure, they work too. Badly.

[Dewderonomy]

If you say so. It worked for me, and exceptionally so. Too bad the only thing you can do is sync.

[Samuell]

If you say so. It worked for me, and exceptionally so. Too bad the only thing you can do is sync.

You keep talking about him and syncing, yet only you ever mentioned it. Of course you ignored every substantive critique he made of your ludicrous position.

He faces the classic problem of arguing with an idiot; you wear your stupidity like an impervious shield.

[Dodger]

You keep talking about him and syncing, yet only you ever mentioned it. Of course you ignored every substantive critique he made of your ludicrous position.

He faces the classic problem of arguing with an idiot; you wear your stupidity like an impervious shield.

I think you have it completely backward actually. The only thing people can tell him is that dexers own mages, which we all know to be a completely ridiculous statement. I've found almost everything dewd has said to be pretty spot on and he is the one getting child like/ridiculous responses. In all honesty I see a conspiracy on these forums by some sync mages who literally have an agenda to make absolutely no other template and play style viable.

[JamieIRL]

Adding luck blows was my biggest turn off from UOR pvp. I still remember not knowing about them being implemented and dying on my statloss pk to a couple of paralyzing blows on the first day of UOR pvp madness. And have any of you played stun pvp? No thanks. The fact that this thread hasn't been met with more hate and spite responses actually scares me a little bit. :)

As for the "sync dump conspiracy", really? Where are these people because I actually feel like I'm the only one here that doesn't have some problem with syncs. Not wanting UOR style luck-blows added to the fundamentally preUOR IPY pvp that people seemed to like does not equal sync dump advocation. Sheesh.

[Dodger]

Adding luck blows was my biggest turn off from UOR pvp. I still remember not knowing about them being implemented and dying on my statloss pk to a couple of paralyzing blows on the first day of UOR pvp madness. And have any of you played stun pvp? No thanks. The fact that this hasn't been met with this thread hasn't been met with more hate and spite responses actually scares me a little bit. :)

Whats the difference between so called "luck blows" and luck syncing? Syncing is the one that actually involved luck.

[JamieIRL]

Whats the difference between so called "luck blows" and luck syncing? Syncing is the one that actually involved luck.

How is landing your spell damage on someone as close to the same time as possible luck? Do explain. I mean, I'm not saying that it's super difficult to do, on the count of three (or however you choose to count down) you release your spells. The only luck factor there is the spell damages which are not a constant.

Yes it's true that paralyzing, crushing, and concussion blows are entirely random and luck based. At least with stun you have to push a button and use stamina, even so it adds nothing positive pvp. Unless you consider groups of mages running around with their stun activated waiting to get you stunned which you can't pop a pouch to get out of and then comes your favorite, a sync dump. Sounds great.

[Dodger]

How is landing your spell damage on someone as close to the same time as possible luck? Do explain.

Yes, paralyzing, crushing, and concussion blows are entirely random and luck based. At least with stun you have to push a button and use stamina, even so it adds nothing positive pvp. Unless you consider groups of mages running around with their stun activated waiting to get you stunned which you can't pop a pouch to get out of and then comes your favorite, a sync dump. Sounds great.

Everyone rushing on screen and then casting a spell hoping they all hit at the same time before the other guys try to cast greater heal is luck. Its like a coin flip.
Luck: a combination of circumstances, events, etc., operating by chance to bring good or ill to a person. That pretty much sums up syncing to the dot.

Random and luck aren't synonyms. The blows come randomly. Since the amount of damage a melee weapon does is random is landing a good hit luck? Since the chance of landing a melee swing is % based is that luck? Literally almost every aspect of the game qualifies as luck by your definition.

[Jack]

Have you ever been a part of a sync group Dodger?

[Dodger]

Have you ever been a part of a sync group Dodger?

Yes, and its the precise reason I don't group pvp any longer.

[Samuell]

I think you have it completely backward actually. The only thing people can tell him is that dexers own mages, which we all know to be a completely ridiculous statement. I've found almost everything dewd has said to be pretty spot on and he is the one getting child like/ridiculous responses. In all honesty I see a conspiracy on these forums by some sync mages who literally have an agenda to make absolutely no other template and play style viable.

I didn't address what "people" tell him. I addressed what uniqueuser posted and none of it had to do with syncing. The only conspiracy I see is you two morons collectively ignoring what people actually type.

[JamieIRL]

rushing on screen and then casting a spell hoping they all hit at the same time before the other guys try to cast greater heal is luck. Its like a coin flip.
Luck: a combination of circumstances, events, etc., operating by chance to bring good or ill to a person. That pretty much sums up syncing to the dot.

Random and luck aren't synonyms. The blows come randomly. Since the amount of damage a melee weapon does is random is landing a good hit luck? Since the chance of landing a melee swing is % based is that luck? Literally almost every aspect of the game qualifies as luck by your definition.


Okay, I realize that this isn't going to go anywhere but whatever. I don't know how else to say the same thing. First of all you don't "run on screen casting a spell hoping they all hit at the same time before the other guys try to cast greater heal". You get on the same target, you wait for the ideal moment or whenever you feel like it, and you synchronize your spells via a caller (someone who counts down, or says something to indicate that it's time to initiate whatever attack you're doing). By your logic; any time anyone cast a spell on anyone it's luck. Because that's all a sync dump is, people casting spells on other people.

Seriously, you're saying that casting spells on other people is luck but getting random attack bonuses that you don't even control is not luck? Yes you could argue that there is luck in every aspect of UO pvp. From spell damages, to melee damages and hit chance, maybe you resist a spell, maybe you fizzle flame strike, but clicking a person is luck? So you're saying that the people who are syncing are lucky to have successfully clicked their target?

[Jack]

Yes, and its the precise reason I don't group pvp any longer.

Just thought I'd ask.

A lot of times I notice people arguing for Dexxer buffage have never really experienced things from a mage point of view. I don't think Dexxers are all that weak personally.

I also dont see how special hits combat syncing. Have fun getting synced by mage fencers...

[Jay]

The thing is, if you add weapon abilities you need to add the rest of the things that came with that update to keep the balance, stun punch, disarm, insncription, poisoning skill adding to the poison spell damage, and lumberjacking... These all came in that update which kept it even accross the board. If your main cry is about syncing it's going to be a WHOLE LOT worse with stun punches, even if they arnt in it will be terrible with a tank mage using fencing... Insta hit spear with chance of a para blow? It's like a stun punch with damage.

On another note about syncing being luck based? sorry but that is a load of balls, I've been playing a servers untill recently where it's pretty much all about syncing, and although I dont particularly like that style of play, it's certainly not about luck. It's all in the callers ability and the people he plays with's ability to listen to calls. If the caller cant tell who the opposition is going to sync, and the opposition are good at syncing the target is basically dead. There is no luck in that, it's simply the caller failing to alert his team where the sync is going. If both the sync and the caller on the recieving end are good, then it is the reaction time of the guys recieving that decides if a player lives or is killed... I dont see any element of luck here.

[Jack]

Personally I loved UOR's template diversity, and messing around with innovative templates.

But during this time, I believe insta-hit and precasting were removed as well.

[Jay]

Personally I loved UOR's template diversity, and messing around with innovative templates.

But during this time, I believe insta-hit and precasting were removed as well.

I know for certain insta hit was removed. I cant remember what patch got rid of pre casting though.

[Remixninja]

You're talking about 5v5, maybe larger, and you're emphasizing the sync dumps in conjunction with dexxing. The dexxers draw attention, maybe keep the other mages disoriented and at bay, while the mages sync the scattering enemies.

That only supports the issue that warriors are disadvantageous, the point being that even in coordinated groups, their entire purpose is harassment. They are expected to chase and deal some damage, but not to land the killing blow. It's the mages that get that honor.

Dewd you were the one bringing up large scale group mage combat, so I was responding accordingly by explaining to you the role dexxers can play in THAT SPECIFIC scenario. If you're arguing this point so that dexxers can receive more "honor" in battle, than I am at an impass.

UO is made up of many types of encounters, and in certain situations X template will be better than Y template. I'm not sure why there's always this constant belief that every style of play should be able to compete with any other style in all situations.

This boogeyman fantasy that dexxers don't do any damage is best left under the bed and in the closet.

Nobody is making the argument that a regular avg joe dexxer is going to beat regular avg joe mage, but player skill is a huge factor in that situation. We sit here arguing "mage" and "dexxer" but in UO there are no classes. Only skills. You want to destroy mages with ease? Change your template and make a med warrior. It's not necessary to spend a huge amount of time completely rebalancing pvp to add random chance special weapon hits to make your "class" viable.

[Jack Straw]

This thread got interesting :D

Jamie the reason people aren't meeting this with hate and spiteful answers is because we're simply discussing it. There is an option in the poll to have special hits but change the way they worked, thus you could advocate a method that you think would take skill. The debate of this thread was aimed specifically at the idea of special hits in general. Some sort of way to make a weapon have another function.

Dewder a kryss is actually as fast as a dagger by the way. And every mage does need Wrestling if he plans to be viable. 0 wrestling is basically a 100% hit chance for someone with a weapon, you'd stand no chance. This was the reason they eventually added Eval/Anat defensive wrestling, to attempt to spice up templates viable with the magery skill.

Precasting was actually removed for some time during t2a and then reimplemented during that same era I believe. I remember you needed to be holding your spell book in order to cast for some strange amount of time. During UO:R you could precast. (Edit: The change to precast may have came with the patches introducing UO:R and thus for part of UO:R there might not have been precast either, but I know for sure that you could precast for a majority of UO:R)

Personally I am not in favor of special hits for a lot of the reasons that people are citing here, that dexxers are actually a very useful item in group situations. One thing is that they will either have to be the target or rip people to shreds. They are also well equipped and always str/agi potted up. I've actually been considering making a med warrior this time around and getting him into some group combat. Although if something like special hits that need to be activated and cost the dexxer something are implemented I would have no issues with them on this shard.

Poisoning did degrade weapons faster, but its not like it was instant. You could still apply poison during battles and get some good use out of that weapon.

Dewder you should try to roll a dexxer this time around and definitely try to get into the later stages of beta.

We're just here for discussion, not bitter arguments :D

[Jay]

It's like this in my opinion.

To get a basic grasp of playing a dexer is easy, everyone can make a character, double click and hope for some good hits. Average dexers are a dime a dozen, they are annoying and require almost no gear but fairly easy to down if you are a good mage, because of this not that many people work hard on becoming a good dexer because they just think it's all double click and run in circles. GOOD dexers are few and far between because it takes a lot of work to actually break past the mediocre dexer catagory, they are expensive to gear, but once you do they are freakin beast.

On the other hand most people will create a mage which is harder to grasp at first (for the complete new comer) but because if you look out there and see most people who are dominating are on mages it seems worth the time to learn. Average mages still take more gear to run than an average dexer. Good mages on the other hand are a dime a dozen like an average dexer, but require a lot less gear than a GOOD dexer.

That's how I always see it playing out anyway.

[Chaosphere]

I agree completely with you Jay. Being a dexxer at heart, I have seen it to be this way.

A top ranked Mage will certainly have a battle with a top ranked Dexxer, but almost all of the time, in most scenarios, the mage will prevail. If you are a really good dexxer than you have to have an amazing amount of strategy to take down mid-high ranked mages, it certainly isn't easy and takes a lot of patience. In the same token, a really good dexxer will most definately beat any other dexxer on the shard in a 1v1 situation.

The para-blow changes things... Although I loved it because it was a very good equal to the mages paralyze, it made mages scared as hell of good fencing dexxers carrying a short spear and a DP Kryss. It is easy to take down even good mages with this setup. Top ranked mages vs this setup were essentially equal on the field, to some extent.

Personally, I can deal with or without having special weapon hits...I'd like to have it, but not if it will make a huge imbalance. I like things to be fair and if that means not to have it, i'm down. Also, since the shard will be majorly mages, the dexxers would have one less thing to worry about-getting para-blow ganked. =D

[PowerArmor]

What the fuck is this townie rage about? Anyone who claims a townie is underpowered in T2A or UOR has pretty clearly never played one. UO sports backpack of 125 items, carry a shitload of Gheals, cures, stams, and explos. Bring a handfull of Gstat pots, a Power or greater weapon and 20 pop pouches and you're good to go.

This is from UO:Redemption, which was a T2A ruleset server that came up after IPY died. I went through one of MANY folders I have of archived random razor deathpics and pulled some screenshots of my townie wrecking some newbies.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/skitari/yo_PA_lemma_use_ya_tama/IntrigueVI_12-16_1929.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/skitari/yo_PA_lemma_use_ya_tama/IntrigueVI_12-13_0102-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/skitari/yo_PA_lemma_use_ya_tama/IntrigueVI_1-5_1729-3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/skitari/yo_PA_lemma_use_ya_tama/IntrigueVI_1-5_1617-1.jpg

Redemption was pretty fun

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/skitari/yo_PA_lemma_use_ya_tama/RobotSeks_8-26_1857.jpg

[Jay]

I agree completely with you Jay. Being a dexxer at heart, I have seen it to be this way.

A top ranked Mage will certainly have a battle with a top ranked Dexxer, but almost all of the time, in most scenarios, the mage will prevail. If you are a really good dexxer than you have to have an amazing amount of strategy to take down mid-high ranked mages, it certainly isn't easy and takes a lot of patience. In the same token, a really good dexxer will most definately beat any other dexxer on the shard in a 1v1 situation.



My opinion was more a top skilled/geared dexer will take down a good mage in most cases... It's just that there arn't a lot of these top skilled and geared dexers compared to good mages around.

[Astax]

I have mastered warrior on OSI quite well. And I must say the only viable thing about it was abuse of the crappy pseudo-random code. Until AOS hit, to master a warrior you needed a GH wand, ton of pots, and knowing one secret: "If you wiff, run off screen. If you hit, stay on him." Congrats you are the best warrior in the game. The ****tines of OSI style random code resulted in constant streaks of hits or misses, especially GM vs GM.

Sure crafted blessed runics "worked" on warriors. But it was no more skillful to use them, just had to get fewer hits in a row to kill.

AOS helped warriors a lot. HCI and Special moves that were on toggle, plus cross healing with bandies up to two tiles away made even dual warrior viable.

[One]

Well guys theres seems to be a simple way to solve this that i think most would agree with.
First it seems to be concensus is with the mediocre mage vs dexxer, mage comes out ontop nearly always. Agreed. Top Rank Mage vs Dexxer i would say a 'neer'(still give the mage a slight uper hand but its close enough) even outcome if dexer is well equeped (pots/Gm Weps.Ect). And well an Uber Vanq equepped Dexer PwNz ..well Sure fair enough if your risking your l33t magick weps/armour you deserve a big upper hand over a mage carrying just regs and pots.

IpY2 seems to be a place of Balance. You need to Balance out the Mediocre Masses some how. I played uo from 97- into some peroid of UoR 2001-2 or so. The changes that occured with the special moves deffinatly boosted the mediocre but it was waay to rock/paper/scissors.

SO I propose a Gm Crafter being able to Craft into the Twohanded Weapons a Gem with a certain abaility attached, simulair to the old moves. Certain gems only work with certain weps. Say a Gem that you must find off the loot of a monster has a certain amount of charges 1-3 . Make it so you decide when you wish to activate said Gem. Giving the player more control of PVP. And IF you Must a Stam Lost associated with the usage aswell. Along with the criteria of say Gm Tactics to equep the Weapon. Ofcourse a CoolDown is needed 15 sec maby.
The Gem must be made rare enough that the expense of useing this weapon is not crazy high but enough to make you think twice of leaving town with it. Say an ordinary Gm Longspear is 350 well with a 3chargeGeM attached your looking at 3350gold(roughly 1000 gold per charge). I also think simulair to posioning If you Use up all of the charges Maby your weapon corrodes down to and ordinary NonGmd class weapon.
I dont think 3 Charges of anything will hamper the top tier players fighting each other. But it would balance the mediocre. It would also help out the PVMers and Crafters Supplying the PvPrs with wanted gear.

[Torin]

I voted yes since i see special hits only making dexers coming abit closer mages.

Remember after UOR was implemented that mainly mages with poor playerskill was the ones whining about how hard the dexers had become. Good mages pre UOR had little problem with dexers even after special hits were introduced.

So as i see it, no to special hits is voting for a shard where mages is superior cause of game mechanics favor them and yes is a shard that is more balanced between dexers and mages.


My opinion was more a top skilled/geared dexer will take down a good mage in most cases... It's just that there arn't a lot of these top skilled and geared dexers compared to good mages around.

I disagree.

The mage would win more then the dexer.

My guild had some of the best mages on Europe and they won FFA tourneys in small duel areans against dexers with +25 vanq krysses/katanas with DP on and different types of 2-handed vanq weapons. And those dexers were skilled ones. 2-handed spears, maces or axes was less bothersome compared to those one handers. A dexer with just a GM weapon was a walk in the park for a equally skilled mage.

[Diz]

With all due respect...

In the context of balance, Dex power = Tank power on IPY 1.0...

Dueling with rules designed for tanks isn't the dex forte.

Go fight a tank [you as a dex] in the field with potions and break LoS and watch him die as soon as he gets below 40 mana [or ends up Recalling]. That's what would happen if you were any good at dexing on IPY 1.0, the tank would die or recall if you didn't die on that first dump [which you wouldn't since you're super awesome, right?]...............

The real issue, again, is that a bunch of average players can sync dumps over Vent as tanks and instantly wreck anybody if they are good at syncing, regardless of enemies templates/skills... a dex [or team of dex] alone can't do this, but in a group fight, say 4 vs 4, where one team has one dex, that team will win if they survive the first couple dumps. Dex molesters. Hard.

ITS SCIENCE FOO

[Grom]

Just recently checked this shard, old UO fan, played for many many years. To put it simply, it doesn't make sense that to compete with a mage template that takes a couple hundred gold to gear, you have to have several tens of thousands worth of gear as a warrior. Read through the first 7 pages or so of this thread, and it's the same thing it always is, a bunch of tank mages crying at the thought of more dexers on the field other than the occasional millionaire. Special hits should be in imo, in one form or another.

[Faded]

i like special hits, but since it is town to town flagable, i doubt they would implement it for the whole world. it really needs to be an all or nothing kind of thing, especially when next month your town could be switched, making those extra skills useless. it just needs to be balanced.

[Caviar]

Tens of thousands worth of gear? Not even necessary. If you're a dexxer with an exceptional wep, pots and a little armor, and you're good at surviving dumps, you'll rock people consistently. In this era, even without special hits, anatomy provides a huggeeee boost to damage. Special hits don't really make dexxers that much more great. They make mages more difficult to. I do think they make picking a weapon skill more interesting than....ok hally mage.

[Acebeans]

You start putting stuff like this in and you'll run the player base off that made IPY so successful in the first place.

I hope the Dev's know this. Shouldn't even be considered.

[anonthefelon]

You start putting stuff like this in and you'll run the player base off that made IPY so successful in the first place.

I hope the Dev's know this. Shouldn't even be considered.

You sir, are a fool.

Now, let me explain why you are a fool.

I played UO from release until...ooh...2008ish I want to say. Now, in all those years, PvP was never balanced fully. Lets just talk about the game era from release to AoS/Pub16. It was still not very balanced, but...it was close. It's with things like weapon special hits, not being able to heal through poison, and poison skill causing escalation that brought balance to the "warrior". If you remove the special hits that were added in Pub 5, and allow people to heal through poison you are doing two things:

Effectively killing your own shard. As was expressed by Az as his greatest fear, the "PvP Cycle". If you do not give even the most newbile and crappy warrior a chance against mages, within 6 months (on the outside edge), you'll have high level/GM mages running around killing all your new players without any hope of retribution. There will be almost no variation in templates, it will be mage mage, of the mage mage. These balancing features are mandatory. It brings the melee player onto a level playing field with the mage, who has much greater power at his disposal. The sheep will be driven off by the wolves.

Melee has to be balanced against magery. They easiest way to do this is to give melee weapons special hits in some form, either random or triggerable. As well as poison preventing any form of healing. This is tangentially related. I remember the days where a mage could get poisoned and then just Gheal through it while still pounding you with spell after spell. It made the melee character useless in pvp conflicts unless they out number the mage. You can deny this, you can fight it, but it's the truth, and you all know it.

By arguing that "if the dexxer is really good!" you're creating a faulty argument. Those melee players are few and far between. There is a gaping chasm of player skill between an even moderate mage and moderate warrior. Never mind how easy it is to "master" magery when it comes to destroying a melee combatant.

In short. Please, please, use the updated melee weapon attacks and poisoning stats from Pub 5. It may not be "era specific", but there is something to be said for sticking to the era in the name of the greater balance. Not only will it be more inviting for new players, but it will be more fun for everyone. When there is no easy kill, the pvp itself becomes more compelling.

[Biohazard]

You sir, are a fool.

actually what you typed sounds a lot more foolish than what he says.

[anonthefelon]

How so? Backing up your point in any way is far better then "NUH UH!"

In any way.

Edit: That is, unless, the fine folks that say there should be no special hits never played UO past T2A, or did, and didn't like the fact that mages and melee's were on an evenish footing.

Or, they just want to make tank mages and own any one who wants to play any opposing play style.

[Biohazard]

special hits just blur the line of balance.. it doesnt actually make it more balanced. i personally dont look forward to being concussed or paralyzed or stunned by a weapon... whether im a mage or a dexxer. the learning curve for dexxers MAY(not necessarily though) be a little steeper but can be very rewarding. mages do not just beat the ass off of dexxers all day. to say that it will kill the shard is pretty outlandish. newbie and crappy warriors should be killed by skilled mages... on the other hand a newbie and crappy mages should be killed by a skilled dexxer. why cant high-level/GM dexxers run around and kill newbie mages??? you make everything sound like dexxers get the short end of the stick the whole time.. which is entirely untrue.. a newbie mage could NOT kill a skilled dexxer the majority of the time on average. you saying that your "favorite era" was more balanced is purely speculation.. and like i said before.. i do not believe it was more balanced.. it was just harder to tell if it was indeed more balanced.

[Iced Earth]

Mages are always percieved as more powerful because when they kill you, you die a lot faster.

If a warrior kills you, even if he is a highly skilled one, it was more than likely a longer process.

Pretty much as simple as that, add on to that the fact that Damage Over Time that warriors inflict is not nearly as powerful as Gigantic Burst Damage delivered by mages especially in Group battles...

A group of dexers with a few strong mages focused only/mostly on healing could actually prove to be very strong, even against a group of all tank mages. It's just you never see that, most people are set in their ways and want to play the mage, and it's just easier to kill people with mages.


I stand by the opinion that Special Moves that required a certain amount of Dex to activate(80+), consumed 15+mana, and you turned on and off to ready for your next swing would be fine, and appealing to a good amount of people who feel this era of combat is rather flat.

AOS style special hits would be a blast, AOS was lame mostly because of items and crap that made it to where you could spam special hits constantly, cast spells instantly, etc. This would be pretty balanced I think, but it would have to be quite thoroughly tested.

[Faded]

I stand by the opinion that Special Moves that required a certain amount of Dex to activate(80+), consumed 15+mana, and you turned on and off to ready for your next swing would be fine, and appealing to a good amount of people who feel this era of combat is rather flat.

i like that idea

[Kyoto Kush]

Special hits need to be implemented, or honestly this is going to get really lame, really quick.

[Kyoto Kush]

You sir, are a fool.

Now, let me explain why you are a fool.

I played UO from release until...ooh...2008ish I want to say. Now, in all those years, PvP was never balanced fully. Lets just talk about the game era from release to AoS/Pub16. It was still not very balanced, but...it was close. It's with things like weapon special hits, not being able to heal through poison, and poison skill causing escalation that brought balance to the "warrior". If you remove the special hits that were added in Pub 5, and allow people to heal through poison you are doing two things:

Effectively killing your own shard. As was expressed by Az as his greatest fear, the "PvP Cycle". If you do not give even the most newbile and crappy warrior a chance against mages, within 6 months (on the outside edge), you'll have high level/GM mages running around killing all your new players without any hope of retribution. There will be almost no variation in templates, it will be mage mage, of the mage mage. These balancing features are mandatory. It brings the melee player onto a level playing field with the mage, who has much greater power at his disposal. The sheep will be driven off by the wolves.

Melee has to be balanced against magery. They easiest way to do this is to give melee weapons special hits in some form, either random or triggerable. As well as poison preventing any form of healing. This is tangentially related. I remember the days where a mage could get poisoned and then just Gheal through it while still pounding you with spell after spell. It made the melee character useless in pvp conflicts unless they out number the mage. You can deny this, you can fight it, but it's the truth, and you all know it.

By arguing that "if the dexxer is really good!" you're creating a faulty argument. Those melee players are few and far between. There is a gaping chasm of player skill between an even moderate mage and moderate warrior. Never mind how easy it is to "master" magery when it comes to destroying a melee combatant.

In short. Please, please, use the updated melee weapon attacks and poisoning stats from Pub 5. It may not be "era specific", but there is something to be said for sticking to the era in the name of the greater balance. Not only will it be more inviting for new players, but it will be more fun for everyone. When there is no easy kill, the pvp itself becomes more compelling.

Quoted for delicious truth, and there is no way to argue this. He is right. The population, and the variety of playing/pvp will suffer incredibly if this stuff is not implemented.

Also, bringing up the name of another shard (since they are closed down now anyways) but Angel Island, had probably the most similar set up to what this shard seems like it is going to be from everything I have read. Some people should look at their setup or past setup, because they had a lot of things right, and basically the only thing that was wrong was the population. I think there are strong points that could be used to greatly balance/help this server out also.

Just my two cents.

And damn am I excited for 5 days from now :]