The Detective system Q's

[Woodlife]

Before I ask,I would like to comment on this new profession. I'm highly anticipating this to be my most favored feature. It seems that it will either tie well into the game, or fail miserably. Why? If it's too powerful people will flock it it and over use it, causing it to be "fixed" and eventually ruined. I'll put my faith that it wont.

My questions are the following:

1. will this be a new skill, or an assisted skill, or a template? will a menu open with this skill?

2. will there be items to use with this for example a Spyglass? or gloves? or will it be a click button skill?
Reasons for this question is that it may be good to counter it by letting others know who is using the detective skill by snooping their bags. This will probably keep the skill more balanced. Just like a lumberjack needs a axe, I'd think a detective needs some sort of id, even if it was something simple like a hat that you could get from detective guildmaster.
I don't want to sound outlandish, but I can only make suggestions the way I see them.

3. will this new skill fix the tracking flaws? For example, once you GM tracking, it's almost useless in town due to the tracking of both NPCs/PCs in heavy traffic. It would be great to have the option to eliminate NPCs out of tracking. Also, as I suggested before, the ability to determine of the person was a ghost,red,blue,perma grey would be a powerful addition.
4. Would there be any ways to use this skill for profit? or would there be any perks?

5. Can murders use this skill? I'd suggest they adopt the theif rules tbo. This skill could more or less the counter skill of the thief. I don't think it would get too far in the antipk group, but I could be wrong.

I know little about this skill, so I can only assume that tracking and forensic eval are some how tied into it. I have a huge number of questions, comment and suggestions on this skill, but before I jump to conclusions, I will let you guys sort it all out.

[Seneschal]

Detectives (according to the poll) should be coming out this coming weekend in the 10 in 10.

However, we still have time to tweak and add any exceptional suggestions which are brought up by you guys.

Feel free to discuss your first impression of what a Detectives system might include!

[Woodlife]

Thanks. My suggestion for Detective vs Theif as I stated earlier. Ill give a few more details

Detective - Tracking, Hiding, forensic eval, snooping

Theif - Hiding, snooping, stealing, stealthing

The tracking counters the stealthing
The forensic eval counters snooping

Theif gets stealing
Detective gets ---

Maybe detectives could gain something other than money, but right now, I'll wait to see what AZ thinks about it before I make my next suggestion.

Detective would already be a profession if the skills were fixed correctly. OSI and no player run shard has achieved this balance. If was implemented as a bounty hunter on OSI, but that was a failure due to lack of RP.

[Travis]

Maybe being GM Tracking and Forensic Eval, you should be able to see, if people are members of the thief guild
or being able to see, if the thief is grey flagged to someone (while blue-tagged).

[Dodger]

Maybe being GM Tracking and Forensic Eval, you should be able to see, if people are members of the thief guild
or being able to see, if the thief is grey flagged to someone (while blue-tagged).

GM Forensic Eval has always let you know if someone was a member of the thieves guild already.

[Woodlife]

If Detective was worked on well, it would ultimatly solve the problem of theifs, and let them keep their skill unchanged. I know a lot of people will be disappointed if thievery is nixed. This detective system would be an easier fix the solution. IT could also be used in conjunction with blues an over all advantage that they tend to lack in game vs reds in dungeons. A true GM tracker should be able to detect 50% of the dungeon when standing inside. IF this skills reserved for blues only just like theifs are, then it will keep it a true blue skill, and keep the PKs common "element of surprise" from always having the upper hand.

I'm sure reds could get their own blue detective friends to tag along, just like blue healers, so to balance that, make it where detectives can't give murder counts just like theifs, and make it to where killing a detective just makes you perma grey to them. That way, if a blue detective is tagging along with reds, the blues can kill him with out taking a count.
Thiefs and Detectives with the same guildlines and restrictions makes perfect sense to me.

[Seneschal]

GM Forensic Eval has always let you know if someone was a member of the thieves guild already.

I never knew this until I started coding and saw it in code.. and I was like... WHAT THE HELL.

I've learned so much about the basics in UO since I started coding. Pretty crazy.

[Woodlife]

Forensic Eval was already a skill that turn into a tool when OSI made theifs join the thiefs guild. Previously, anyone could steal in town anywhere, and even from monsters while they were attacking you. That's when you just had to drop the item out of their bag and into yours. Easy as that.

The problem is that instead of OSI giving non thiefs any real protection against theifs, they opened Trammel/Felucia so they never needed to. Problem solved for them, and for us it was the worst mistake in UO history lol.

[Dodger]

Forensic Eval was already a skill that turn into a tool when OSI made theifs join the thiefs guild. Previously, anyone could steal in town anywhere, and even from monsters while they were attacking you. That's when you just had to drop the item out of their bag and into yours. Easy as that.

The problem is that instead of OSI giving non thiefs any real protection against theifs, they opened Trammel/Felucia so they never needed to. Problem solved for them, and for us it was the worst mistake in UO history lol.

I think Trammel was more aimed at stopping PK's/Non-consensual PVP. Thieves already cannot give murder counts and become perma grey after stealing from a blue. I think this already does more than enough to balance out and prevent thief problems. In the later years of OSI I always remember thieving being one of those useless skills and if anything thieves need a boost not a nerf.

[Travis]

I never knew this until I started coding and saw it in code.. and I was like... WHAT THE HELL.

I've learned so much about the basics in UO since I started coding. Pretty crazy.

Yeah, guess I didnt see that one coming either..
But then again, about 10 years since I last even looked at that skill.

[Woodlife]

I think Trammel was more aimed at stopping PK's/Non-consensual PVP. Thieves already cannot give murder counts and become perma grey after stealing from a blue. I think this already does more than enough to balance out and prevent thief problems. In the later years of OSI I always remember thieving being one of those useless skills and if anything thieves need a boost not a nerf.

Trammel was just to fix griefing in general.

I agree, but not with the boosting or nerfing. I say leave it be as is. After a while thiefs wont just be camping banks, but they will be having to work for their chedder. I've only met one theif who struck huge gold as a theif. That was Manimal's thief that stole the Tower deed in Britain. Most theifs are for fun, but they do have the ability to frustrate and every so often team up and get a nice item. I think amid all the O/C and red vs Blue that this would be the ultimate rivalry for in town quarrels.

[Bc of SAS]

I'd like to see GM Detectives to be able to see Invis and Hidden people, like the old UOE program did.

I have a feeling hiding will be a common skill for Pk's on this server given the no recall in/out of dungeons.


If it wasn't necessary to have detect hidden, you could do Forensic Eval and Tracking, and still have 5 skills to use as either your basic gimp or mage skills. I know I wouldn't be going Thief or Murderer hunting if I didn't have the combat skills to at least defend myself.. if I am forced to have more than 2 detective skills then all of a sudden I have to chose between med and wrestle, or survival (Drop eval) mode.. which gives me no offense..

[TheScoundrelRico]

If there is to be a thriving and active thieving community, Detectives are a must. Most thieves I know have always remembered their nemesis detective on the shard they played. Personally, most of my time was on Siege, and for about 6 months, there was a detective tandem on the shard that made logging in as a thief even more fun. Knowing that if I stepped into town (Moonglow at the time), those two would be hunting for my location. One player was the tracker and revealer, the other had a powerful mage template which was the one I feared most. Once they found out I was perma grey, they would track and hunt me throughout the shard. Hell, I may not have even stolen anything that day, but the time it took me to lose them, was great fun.

Many days they would protect the towns because they would reveal me at the worst time, as I was setting up a mark. Other times, we would go back and forth in attack mode. This fun lasted until the publish which took away perma grey. From that point forward, detectives on the shard pretty much were eliminated. I hope this system allows for the fun we used to have...la

[Az]

Do people have suggestions on how Detectives should apply best to thieves?

[Woodlife]

Do people have suggestions on how Detectives should apply best to thieves?

You mean what would they gain? The same satisfaction a theif gets from stealing junk from another player. You'd be surprised how much people would like to take their anger out on theives but are limited to do so.

Nix the detect hidden skill (which is already broken when used in town) and change it to detecting. Allow it to function like
a disguise kit would help a theif.

Detecting could still be used if someone wants to find someone hidden in their house, but then again, wasn't that about all the skill was good for to begin with?

Using Detect hidden on a corpse could give a different effect than just revealing hidden people. Maybe using it on a monster would give you a little bit of gold, or maybe a chance to find a Tmap, or rares. Put a skill timer on it of course, so it's not able to over use on mobs so it would be a perk to fighting, but not too powerful.

Just say you wanted to roleplay. You make your way out to the woods and see a player corpse. You use the skill on it, and reveal who/what killed them. This is what Forensic Eval was ment for, but it had some horrible limitations.
Use Detect skill on that person, and why not be able to track that player just as you could tracking? Maybe allow the skill to work on a timer, or until you get close enough to use the tracking skill to find the player. This would create use for the other skills involved in the class. IMO Tracking would benifit Detecting as Meditation does to Magery.

The way I see the dungeon set up for IPY 2.0, this would be in demand for when blues see a corpse along the way through a dungeon.

The coding process would be extreamly difficult, but if pulled off, it would no doubt be worth ever bit.

Really I have a lot of ideas, but I'm not going to rush in all at once. I'd rather see which direction this goes before I suggest more.

[Quantum]

So I guess you've figured out the Detectives vs Murderers then?

So maybe Detectives get an office in every town? You get an item stolen, you go to the detective shop, file a report on the thief and the item. Every detective gets a message about the thief, and the office the report was filed in. The thief will show up in their detective tracking list (maybe sporadically?), and every time the thief is attacked by a detecive (until he dies) or the victim, a message is sent to all detectives online (you know, like a police radio) alerting that a suspect has been spotted "near Britain" or "In the swamps of Trinsic".

I'm not a huge thief person, but I remember playing a server (might have been OSI) where if you stole an item, you couldn't move it out of your bag for X amount of time, to prevent banking/trading/pack horses/dropping the item before a guard hit, and your friend or other account grabbing it. If this is the case, the person who filed a report on a thief will get their item back, because if you can tell it was stolen (programming-wise) you can probably tell who it was stolen from, right? So send it back to that person's bank with a note or something. There would also have to be a reward for the detective, tied in with the rest of the detective stem that we don't know about yet, so just some kind of carrot that's not quite equivalent to the murderer stuff but still enough to get people to want to catch thieves if they're already in the area (you know, like real cops).

*This is basically an extension of perma-gray for a thief, but only for people in the detectives guild or wearing rubber gloves or with X forensic evaluation skill.
Perma-gray would still work the same for non detectives.

Also, I say I'm not a huge 'thief' person, but every almost every mage character I've had since OSI has had some form of stealing on it. Some for faction sigils, some for target weapon, disarm, steal weapon, destroy (good on heavy magic weapon servers), and some for straight up dungeon grief stealing. I'm just not a bank thief or anything like that, ya know?

[Woodlife]

So I guess you've figured out the Detectives vs Murderers then?

So maybe Detectives get an office in every town? You get an item stolen, you go to the detective shop, file a report on the thief and the item. Every detective gets a message about the thief, and the office the report was filed in. The thief will show up in their detective tracking list (maybe sporadically?), and every time the thief is attacked by a detecive (until he dies) or the victim, a message is sent to all detectives online (you know, like a police radio) alerting that a suspect has been spotted "near Britain" or "In the swamps of Trinsic".

I'm not a huge thief person, but I remember playing a server (might have been OSI) where if you stole an item, you couldn't move it out of your bag for X amount of time, to prevent banking/trading/pack horses/dropping the item before a guard hit, and your friend or other account grabbing it. If this is the case, the person who filed a report on a thief will get their item back, because if you can tell it was stolen (programming-wise) you can probably tell who it was stolen from, right? So send it back to that person's bank with a note or something. There would also have to be a reward for the detective, tied in with the rest of the detective stem that we don't know about yet, so just some kind of carrot that's not quite equivalent to the murderer stuff but still enough to get people to want to catch thieves if they're already in the area (you know, like real cops).

*This is basically an extension of perma-gray for a thief, but only for people in the detectives guild or wearing rubber gloves or with X forensic evaluation skill.
Perma-gray would still work the same for non detectives.

Also, I say I'm not a huge 'thief' person, but every almost every mage character I've had since OSI has had some form of stealing on it. Some for faction sigils, some for target weapon, disarm, steal weapon, destroy (good on heavy magic weapon servers), and some for straight up dungeon grief stealing. I'm just not a bank thief or anything like that, ya know?

That's why I am against nerfing stealing by all means.

Theifs can't stay in the guild if they Kill (unless provoked), so it's not like you'd be tracking down a killer theif, only someone who did a murder count. How often do you see a dead corpse outside town? Not so often, and if you're like me, you just keep moving along.

A PK shouldn't have anything to hide... Why would they not want to be found? Maybe the "element of surprise" is unfavorable? Isn't that how the majority of PK groups operate? Do you know how much $$ you make as a red? It's easily the most profitable method in this game. Little skill required in a gank squad when attacking a group already being attacked by Mobs. So why would reds complain about being hunted?


And this isn't a suggestion that UO isn't already familure with. if you have ever GM tracking (I have many times) You'd know that a crippled version of people navigation already exists in the game. Due to it's lack of popularity, it also lacked support.

And lastly about the thiefs..... I suppose thiefs have a lot to lose already? How many thiefs do you know that become a thief to make serious money? They make more profit killing noobs who attack them grey.

However what a thief steals from me, means a lot more to me than it does to him. If I have 100 arrows in my bag, it's because I put them there. A thief could easily steal them and have no use for them. If I'm an archer, then i'll need them. they don't even sell for very much. It's a matter of principal. Theifs 9 times out of 10 do what they do because they can and people hate it.
I'm suggesting to put a damper on theifs, not a road block. A theif doesn't need a Detective class to do his job so he can wander aimlessly for victims. A detective would require a theif to do his.

Do you honestly think a theif has it hard? Macro snooping at the bank for a day, macro hiding, macro stealth, macro stealing... FFS you don't even have to leave town to GM those do you?

In this game there are risks to each skill. Theifs do a lot of grief, and all they lose is their time and patience. Having a town theif camp the bank all day is all too common. So what's wrong with establishing a rival profession?

[Quantum]

So, sorry, I'm not sure what part of my post you're talking about. I'm not talking about murderers at all here, just thieves. And I see the thief detection as being secondary to the murdering and other stuff that Detectives will be investigating.

If Az already has enough down about detectives that he's ready to do 10 in 10 on it, but he's still asking for input on how they should interact with thieves, I think there's a lot we're not aware of, and thieves won't be the only thing they'll be detecting.

And as for the tracking issue, I had a character (for factions) on Catskills that was 20.1 tracking, 80.1 stealing, 99.8 magery, with GM Inscribe/Eval/Med/Resist. I know how all of this stuff works, don't question my chops. I can only assume the tracking system has already been greatly improved upon, for detectives and for paladins.

[Woodlife]

Detective being for theifs and reds is not over privilaging by any means.

See it this way. Take all of the skills in the game and break them down and see how 1 skill can branch out for uses.

1 skill Magery has 64 spells.

Magery can replace the following skills

Unlock,Alchemy,Healing,Poisoning,and lets not forget summon and attack spells which replicate taming and any weapon skill.

90% of all reds use this skill

Now you have the skills that Detective will likely be based around.

tracking (who the fuck uses this skill?) what is it good for? Attacking? Stealing? Traveling? Farming? Nope, it's just for locating another player,animal,monster. I used it to hunt afk macroers.... Didn't make any money off it either.

Detect hidden Ever try to use this joke of a skill? 0 detect hidden in a house works 100% of the time, but GM detect hidden works almost 0% of the time against GM hiding? It's a jacked up skill that has potential.

Forensic Eval? Use it on a corpse and it will tell you who looted it, use it on theifs to determine of they are theifs. wow...
First of all, if you died and your corpse was looted, what good does it do to know the name of that person? You have to carry the additional skill tracking and pray to god they are close by. Then when you find them what are you going to do? Kill them and get your loot back? You've just wasted 200 skill points that have little use even when combined. The purpose for that was for bigger and better things. UO just never got there because Richard Garriot left Orgin at such an early stage.

All you would have to do is tie the knot on the skills and you could have a profession just like Dexxer, Assassin, PK, Theif, Treasurehunter, Mule or whatever professions already exist in the game.

[Woodlife]

So, sorry, I'm not sure what part of my post you're talking about. I'm not talking about murderers at all here, just thieves. And I see the thief detection as being secondary to the murdering and other stuff that Detectives will be investigating.

If Az already has enough down about detectives that he's ready to do 10 in 10 on it, but he's still asking for input on how they should interact with thieves, I think there's a lot we're not aware of, and thieves won't be the only thing they'll be detecting.

And as for the tracking issue, I had a character (for factions) on Catskills that was 20.1 tracking, 80.1 stealing, 99.8 magery, with GM Inscribe/Eval/Med/Resist. I know how all of this stuff works, don't question my chops. I can only assume the tracking system has already been greatly improved upon, for detectives and for paladins.

No Problamo. Just voicing my opinion, don't take offence to it lol. When I get on the soap box, I tend to get that way. I'm waiting for Az's post. I know nothing about detectives, I'm only going on how I would best see the skill fit. These are just my opinions on the best way after playing this game for as long as I have.

[Kaelyn]

There was a bug on ea uo to ckeck if someone is in thieves guild.
If you used forensics and gained then the person was in the guild.
Any chance this 'bug' is not working?

[Dodger]

Do people have suggestions on how Detectives should apply best to thieves?

PLEASE do not nerf thieves by making some insane detectives. Thieves already suffer drastically on UO and struggle to survive. Thieves suffer from being perma grey after stealing, cannot give murder counts, and we all know as soon as a thief steals everyone within range to see it instantly bands together to form some kind of quasi gank squad and attacks the thief. The profession is all but dead already. Detectives already have skills that work just fine. With detect hidden, forensic evaluation, and tracking, a detective would already be able to track down thieves and find out if they are members of the thieves guild and kill them without worrying about taking counts. The absolute only thing I could find reasonable is if Forensic Eval also showed if a player was perma grey and not only that they were in the thieves guild. This would allow thieves to be discovered as grey even when masquerading as a blue. The question, if any, should be how can I make thieves more relevant? Not how can I make another profession to make thieves even more irrelevant? My solution would be to just leave everything exactly how it is now.

[Severus]

Yeah I'm interested in the 10 in 10 for just such a reason. I figured thieves were such a non factor that I didn't realize detectives were needed. In fact, when I saw the graphic about it on the site it didn't even click that it was anything to do with being anti-thief. I figured it was some new thing like treasure hunting, lol.

[Jack Straw]

These threads always irk me. Why don't we wait for the 10-in-10 to come out on detectives, then give our critique/suggestions instead of critiquing a system we don't know the first thing about other than the name?..

[Severus]

I think the answer to that JS is that we are too impatient. If you were most looking forward to hearing about Pirates and it was last on the 10n10 list, it would be mighty hard to resist making a pirate post for 2 months. If it were me I wouldn't be able to contain my YARR's long enough.

[Jack Straw]

I voted for Detectives :)

I'm patiently waiting. All we know is from the scrolling images at the homepage

It may have something to do with:
-Corpses
-Thieves
-Murderers
-At least one of the Lores/intelligences
-It is non-combative

But exactly what it is we need to wait a few days to find out, that is all too vague.

From that slide we also know that Az may be a fan of wizard hats.

[Dodger]

These threads always irk me. Why don't we wait for the 10-in-10 to come out on detectives, then give our critique/suggestions instead of critiquing a system we don't know the first thing about other than the name?..

Because AZ asked us to comment and give suggestions? lol

[Azvacar]

These threads always irk me. Why don't we wait for the 10-in-10 to come out on detectives, then give our critique/suggestions instead of critiquing a system we don't know the first thing about other than the name?..

I think speculation is healthy for any game community. Before a game is released it gives people an outlet for their excitement and anticipation. It's good for marketing and helps build that community :). Besides, there's the off-chance that a usable idea will come up in one of these discussions.

[abm]

From that slide we also know that Az may be a fan of wizard hats.

Speaking of wizard hats, I watched the Potter movie last night. Jawesome.

[Quantum]

the Potter movie last night. Jawesome.
true story.

[Jack Straw]

Because AZ asked us to comment and give suggestions? lol

But he asked after the thread was already made, that doesn't count. :)

That also doesn't mean it makes sense.. How can I give a legitimate suggestion about a system I know nothing about? I can say "here is what I think about thievery in UO", but that is saying nothing about Detectives. From that point on we're just positing what we don't like about thieves and saying "make Detectives do this" without any idea if a) the Detective class already does that or b) if that will change the entire idea of the Detective and it would make more sense to make a totally different change.

I can't give a suggestion for changing your blueberry pie recipe if I don't know what your recipe is and have also never tasted your blueberry pie

[Woodlife]

Suggestions are good. Either way, one man's decision will always be final. It's just a great way of expressing the interests.

Dodger, theives are a starving because it takes little talent. Since when does a Theif have to leave town to GM their skills? Do they lose armor, weapons and gold when they die? When a theif dies how much loot do they drop? LOL you know these answers. They gain little, but lose little as well. Small commitments bring tiny rewards. Plus, if you make a theif to earn money, you've made a bad choice in careers. I wouldn't expect a detective to make much of a profit either.

[Jack Straw]

Thieves take no less talent then a dexxer or mage.. How many characters actually need to leave town to GM their skills? I can think of very few.. This is a very poor measure for the "level of talent" involved in the character. You'd be saying that a miner takes "more talent" than many skill classes.

I could make an argument that a thief takes quite a bit more talent than the ability to click buttons when someone miles away says "now" or "drop" over a ventrilo server..

It is foolish to say stealing in UO is a talentless profession, sure there are horrible thieves who run around naked and die all the time and give up terrible loot. There are bad mages who do the same. Bad dexxers who do the same. Yet a good thief, just as much as a good member of any of those other play styles, takes plenty of skill..

Have you ever tried to snoop into a bag and steal something while in an intense fight?

[Woodlife]

And just for the record, these are my ideas, not AZ's. For all we know the class will be used for NPC quest purposes.... Who knows until it's posted. I don't want people getting frustrated at this post, because AZ hasn't released info on it yet. My opinions are bring expressed here. I just thought a detective would make a great antithief and hopefully keep the theif skill from being nerfed by balancing the skill. I hope others do as well. IF not, then that's cool, we can't all have it out way. There likely will be some giveway on both sides of IPY 2.0.

[Jack Straw]

I just don't understand why you think we need an "anti thief".. They're perma gray once they steal and can't give counts even if they haven't stolen.. everyone with the ability to fight is an anti thief.. What more could you ask for?

We don't want to create a rock paper scissors environment.

[Woodlife]

Thieves take no less talent then a dexxer or mage.. How many characters actually need to leave town to GM their skills? I can think of very few.. This is a very poor measure for the "level of talent" involved in the character. You'd be saying that a miner takes "more talent" than many skill classes.

I could make an argument that a thief takes quite a bit more talent than the ability to click buttons when someone miles away says "now" or "drop" over a ventrilo server..



It is foolish to say stealing in UO is a talentless profession, sure there are horrible thieves who run around naked and die all the time and give up terrible loot. There are bad mages who do the same. Bad dexxers who do the same. Yet a good thief, just as much as a good member of any of those other play styles, takes plenty of skill..

Have you ever tried to snoop into a bag and steal something while in an intense fight?

A miner and a theif are much different. One is a tradeskill, the other is a lifestyle.

A good theif will be good no matter what obsticles he's avoiding. My point wasn't that a theif was the only skill you could GM in town, but it's a skill that is not ment for financial gain. And if you think about it, all the skills you can GM in town, you still have to leave the guard zone to make cash.

I would just suggest that no restrictions be made in stealing, and in return, other players can have a more fair advantage in revealing them or interfering with their gameplay.

I promise you, that detective will not be an overly played class. I've played this game long enough to see common trends in game play and people. I'm not dissing theifs either, because I find it to be one of the most exciting classes to play. I would probably enjoy theivery and detective equally the same.

[Dodger]

My point wasn't that a theif was the only skill you could GM in town, but it's a skill that is not ment for financial gain.

If a thief is not meant for financial gain what is it meant for? The only other thing I could think is griefing. I've made quite a lot of money off my thieves. Stealing boat keys and then stealing the boat, rare dye tubs, rune books to spawns, enough regs to GM magery several times over, vanq weapons. I think the only purpose of a thief is for financial gain.

[Woodlife]

I just don't understand why you think we need an "anti thief".. They're perma gray once they steal and can't give counts even if they haven't stolen.. everyone with the ability to fight is an anti thief.. What more could you ask for?

We don't want to create a rock paper scissors environment.

The Rock paper scissors enviorment has existed since UO was created.

Here's some examples.

Maces can't be poisoned, so they were fixed to drop dex to balance the 4 weapon classes
Magery was too strong, so meditation was implemented so they wouldn't wear plate armor.
One handed weapons + Sheild vs Two handed weapons
MIBs were on Deep Sea Serpant corpses whereas you originally could just pull them out of the water.
Theifs Now have to join the thieves guild (Needless to say on this thread)
Heal potions have timers, as well as bandages so they would not be too powerful.
Magic trap bags to release paralize
Ore, Fish, Wood and leather weigh massive amounts due to their value.

Those examples are settings implemented to insure not one class can overwelm the game. This game is designed to where anyone can have an advantage if they were a better player, not by what skill he chose necessarily. Needless to say Rock, Paper, Sissors cycle is already in the game mechanics.

[MethodManX]

In my opinion every action should have an equal reaction, and each template should have a counter that based on skill of said user playing the template, either template can achieve success.

The baseline of the discussion is how do you want to deal with a thief action. Of course most of us resort to conflict (PVP) right away, but there could be other options. Why not let characters progress through the detective or thief system so that there are multiple resolutions to the thief action.

What if a successful detective (who has the ability to 'out' thieves for EVERYONE using a detective tool on a thief) who has 'outed' many thiefs now has the ability (or is granted the ability via the town system) to 'jail' thieves (who get to play a fun mini game to escape from jail) with other tools? Town based banishment for thiefs, with guards that enforce it by running and not teleporting? Why does every conflict have to end with PVP? Why can't we create fun dynamic parts of the game that add to both sides of the equation.

[Jack Straw]

Balancing ≠ Rock Paper Scissors.. Its balancing.. To prove that we had a Rock Paper Scissors environment would be to say something like Mages beat Dexxers but Dexxers beat Thieves and Thieves beat Mages.. Not "well we fixed this because it was a problem and made one class too strong". Obviously there are some instances of these clear cut advantages in UO, I was simply saying we don't want to add to them because it just makes the game dry.

Now what MM is proposing seems to make sense. That would be a great implementation. Systems to deal with usual PvP related things in non-PvP ways was something I didn't even think of having in this game..

[Woodlife]

If a thief is not meant for financial gain what is it meant for? The only other thing I could think is griefing. I've made quite a lot of money off my thieves. Stealing boat keys and then stealing the boat, rare dye tubs, rune books to spawns, enough regs to GM magery several times over, vanq weapons. I think the only purpose of a thief is for financial gain.

If this were the case, you would see theifs outside town stealing from monsters or better yet killing them. If your chars purpose is for making cash then you would see a whole lot less of bank camping and waiting. I'm not new to this game, and it's generally known that stealing has other perks than money. How much money do you get from stealing? You get more items than gold, and in most RUNUO shards vendors have horrible returns.

I'd like to think that someone makes a theif to raise money for a house or boat... or whatever... But let's face reality. It's the fun factor the keeps people playing it. It's like a gamble every time you look into someones bag hoping to see a jackpot. And besides that, if you find stealing while pvping in town, then what's the difference?

[Jack Straw]

Gold isn't the only capital in this game.. He is saying that you can get the end products associated with gold through stealing:

Steal regs. Regs cost gold. Regs can get you gold. You've increased your capital.
Farming monsters isn't the only way to gain capital, that is why so many people are red.
Sure there are perks associated with them aside from what you earn, but its still quite a lucrative profession and its end purpose is to sustain your game play without the need to PvE.

[Woodlife]

Balancing ≠ Rock Paper Scissors.. Its balancing.. To prove that we had a Rock Paper Scissors environment would be to say something like Mages beat Dexxers but Dexxers beat Thieves and Thieves beat Mages.. Not "well we fixed this because it was a problem and made one class too strong". Obviously there are some instances of these clear cut advantages in UO, I was simply saying we don't want to add to them because it just makes the game dry.

Now what MM is proposing seems to make sense. That would be a great implementation. Systems to deal with usual PvP related things in non-PvP ways was something I didn't even think of having in this game..


If that were the case then Detectives still wouldn't be a rock paper scissor effect. It would have to do with the better player.
What I mean by the game mechanics is things are evened out by weight, value, rarity, power, speed and so on. When it comes to those items and skills, they have permanent values, but what makes it impossible for players is that some players are better than others. So in the end, it's up to you to kill or be killed thanks for the way this game is made.

[Woodlife]

Gold isn't the only capital in this game.. He is saying that you can get the end products associated with gold through stealing:

Steal regs. Regs cost gold. Regs can get you gold. You've increased your capital.
Farming monsters isn't the only way to gain capital, that is why so many people are red.
Sure there are perks associated with them aside from what you earn, but its still quite a lucrative profession and its end purpose is to sustain your game play without the need to PvE.



As I was saying, this is a flawed because NPC vendors buy resources are horrible rates. Unless he had a Housing vendor for his theif or bartered, this is just a way of saying he could make theiving into a profession for raising money, but very unlikely.

I'll just give in and say OK. So you can make money being a thief standing next to the bank. Sounds like a GOOD reason to fix it to me lol

Why does welfare still function in the real world? Because theres enough hard working honest people to pay their taxes. lol I guess that applies for UO intown thiefs as well.

[Diz]

God people really need to just play the game at this point, they're dying IN THE THEORETICAL TRENCHES!!!!

Detectives are fucking baller, nuff said.

[Dodger]

What you guys are proposing as a detective being a complete anti thief would effectively kill the thief profession all together. Thieves already have the odds stacked against them. The towns guards alone already effectively police thieves.
These ideas are way too radical to implement or we will end up playing a game with UO graphics, that we call UO, but in reality is some sort of completely new game.

[Woodlife]

God people really need to just play the game at this point, they're dying IN THE THEORETICAL TRENCHES!!!!

Detectives are fucking baller, nuff said.

Damn that sounded good! lol

"I wanna be a Balla
shot calla
20" blades on the impala"

[Jack Straw]

As I was saying, this is a flawed because NPC vendors buy resources are horrible rates. Unless he had a Housing vendor for his theif or bartered, this is just a way of saying he could make theiving into a profession for raising money, but very unlikely.

I'll just give in and say OK. So you can make money being a thief standing next to the bank. Sounds like a GOOD reason to fix it to me lol

Why does welfare still function in the real world? Because theres enough hard working honest people to pay their taxes. lol I guess that applies for UO intown thiefs as well.

I don't get why you need to liquidate your assets in order for them to be considered profit..

Why the hell would I sell regs to an NPC vendor when I could:
A) use them myself and not have to pay money to get regs because I stole them
B) sell them on a player run vendor in bulk

Black pearl costs 5 gp per. If I steal in total 1000 black pearl, I have essentially saved myself 5,000 gold and thus I obtained 5,000 gold worth of goods for free. Now if I sell this for 4.5 gold per to players i make 4,500 gold that I didn't have before. Thus, I just earned money. If I use this black pearl on my mage I just essentially gave my mage 5,000 gold to go buy 1,000 black pearl, but skipped the middle man NPC vendor.

If I'm walking down the street and happen upon a diamond, I still gain capital even though its isn't actual money, do I not?

And since when is bartering unlikely in UO? I thought you said you played the game.. And sure, you can make money standing next to the bank, but that is just an abuse of game mechanics that we all admit to be annoying. Plus, its easy to stop, don't be stupid with your transactions and don't sit afk at the bank with expensive stealable items in your bag.

News for you--a majority of thieves don't bank sit.

[Diz]

we will end up playing a game with UO graphics, that we call UO, but in reality is some sort of completely new game.

Baller

[Jack Straw]

I feel like we left theory land and are just talking about thieves right now Diz, as I was hoping I could change this thread into.

Of course MM's comment was theoretical but not speculative.

[Woodlife]

What you guys are proposing as a detective being a complete anti thief would effectively kill the thief profession all together. Thieves already have the odds stacked against them. The towns guards alone already effectively police thieves.
These ideas are way too radical to implement or we will end up playing a game with UO graphics, that we call UO, but in reality is some sort of completely new game.

Not exactly. That's why I am suggesting on fixing the skills Tracking, detecting and forensics. The skills exist already and halfway function as is. In return, maybe this would convince Az to not nerfing the theifs which he said was already planned.

I agree that theifs are much to a disadvantage. But that's what happens when people try to go overboard with one skill unfortunatly. How many people got frustrated from the skill so much they just gave up? I can recall going to Brit bank one night and having a conversation with about 8 thiefs... that was damn near everyone at the bank. Like a pack of Hyenas waiting for their prey.

Some people think I'm antithief on this topic when I'm far from it. If anything I'm trying to save stealing.
If it's a tradeskill then there needs to be tradeskill boundries. If it's for fun, then I see less reason to nerf it.
A skill as fun as stealing having the benifits of not leaving town, good money gains/extreamly low in game losses DOES need to be adjusted.

That's why I think you guys are pushing the stealing class to be way better than what it really is.... Tell a GM that and what does he think? It needs to be toned down. Why? Because sounds like too sweet of a deal.

A GM is mostly wanting his players to be reasonably happy with out detrimental side effects. I seriouly doubt AZ would nerf thiefs just for the hell of it.








See what I mean?

[Diz]

Jack Straw, you're dropping theoretical numbers about Black Pearl cost and extrapolating it to a unified theory of thief market efficiency.

How that is not insano-speculation is something I'm all ears to hear about.

[Woodlife]

I don't get why you need to liquidate your assets in order for them to be considered profit..

Why the hell would I sell regs to an NPC vendor when I could:
A) use them myself and not have to pay money to get regs because I stole them
B) sell them on a player run vendor in bulk

Black pearl costs 5 gp per. If I steal in total 1000 black pearl, I have essentially saved myself 5,000 gold and thus I obtained 5,000 gold worth of goods for free. Now if I sell this for 4.5 gold per to players i make 4,500 gold that I didn't have before. Thus, I just earned money. If I use this black pearl on my mage I just essentially gave my mage 5,000 gold to go buy 1,000 black pearl, but skipped the middle man NPC vendor.

If I'm walking down the street and happen upon a diamond, I still gain capital even though its isn't actual money, do I not?

And since when is bartering unlikely in UO? I thought you said you played the game.. And sure, you can make money standing next to the bank, but that is just an abuse of game mechanics that we all admit to be annoying. Plus, its easy to stop, don't be stupid with your transactions and don't sit afk at the bank with expensive stealable items in your bag.

News for you--a majority of thieves don't bank sit.

I understand, but stealing 1k black pearl would fetch you only 4.5k and would probably take a long time to get... You guys make stealing look so much fun I think I'm going to log on UOSA and make a thief Hehe

Nothing wrong with bartering. That's why the world has pawn shops lol

You know your in high crime area when there's more pawn shops than dollar stores. Hmmm I see the connection here :D Me thinks Brit Bank is like The Bronx. Indeed a pleasent place to go to when a wad full of cash.

[Jack Straw]

Jack Straw, you're dropping theoretical numbers about Black Pearl cost and extrapolating it to a unified theory of thief market efficiency.

How that is not insano-speculation is something I'm all ears to hear about.

You're turning into quite the troll these days :)

[Woodlife]

You're turning into quite the troll these days :)

Yaht has just been around this game long enough that he probably wants to PK everyone last one of us on here for not shutting up lol. He's holding his composure quite well I'd say. I don't sense any sarcasim in his words lol

It takes a lot of get a shard moving no doubt. I can imagine AZ is on the brink of insanity by now.

[Diz]

Am I not supposed to explain myself when someone questions my words?

Am I not allowed to question?

[Dodger]

Az said thieves were going to be nerfed? I don't recall this but I could have easily missed it. Are you sure this isn't something you misunderstood though?

[Jack Straw]

I believe I remember him saying he wasn't going to do anything at all to thieves.

[Dodger]

I believe I remember him saying he wasn't going to do anything at all to thieves.

Thats what I thought I remembered too Jack Straw.

[Woodlife]

Az said thieves were going to be nerfed? I don't recall this but I could have easily missed it. Are you sure this isn't something you misunderstood though?

Here's what he said 4 weeks ago

"Ah, unfortunately, while there are plenty of things you DON'T know about yet, massive improvements to rogues is not one of them. Sorry!

Not because I don't like rogues, but more because there's only so much we can do."

Nerfing may have been an assumption, but IMO theres definatly a thin grey line on what to expect.

[Jay]

Am I not supposed to explain myself when someone questions my words?

Am I not allowed to question?

Something I've found on forums, if you try to explain yourself or defend yourself from other peoples accusations or from just whatever they say directed at you generally you are either trolling or raged.

[Diz]

Fuck it.

IPY WILL RAPE YOUR DICK OFF!!!! NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.

DETECTIVES PWN.

PS - I honestly think, call me a dork or whatever, that the Detective system is simply amazing for this reason alone - it's not win or lose. I mean there are aspects being discussed that are black or white, but for the most part, I like the introduction of non-competitive things that still can be tied INTO the competitive stuff (like PvP, crime, etc). I'm just very excited for the sublime nature of Detectives to become apparent. If I was honestly going to play IPY I would consider playing a detective seriously, because of the casual yet intense features it interacts with. For me that is enjoyable, I suspect for others as well. Not all of us want to or have the capability to powergame and PvP, etc, but would still like to be involved with it on some level. If detectives can deal with thieves, that'd be cool, too!

[Diz]

Detectives in UO should be like this story - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHUT_QiMntc